Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive294
Iskandar323
[edit]| Iskandar323 receives a logged warning to take into account page and other restrictions due to discretionary sanctions--Ymblanter (talk) 18:18, 21 September 2021 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Iskandar323[edit]
The user was given a chance to self-revert and he still can but he refuses to do so[5]. The user also violated WP:NPA when he was told that he broken the rules. For me it seems that this editor is uncapable to edit is such area and should take a break to learn our polices. --Shrike (talk) 07:35, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
@Deepfriedokra:,@HighInBC: The user still in his WP:battle mode calling me an "antagonist" [6] The user clearly here to WP:RGW --Shrike (talk) 07:10, 16 September 2021 (UTC) @Deepfriedokra: I don't think I said that the user is "partisan" If yes could you please show me. Maybe you confusing my statement with Iscander[7] --Shrike (talk) 14:50, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Iskandar323[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Iskandar323[edit]I made one revert, and then, within the same 24-hour period, made a second, modified edit following on from a discussion in the talk section of the page, where the consensus was that the content I had added had been given undue weight. Duly noted, the modified edit reduced the weight of the content. This discussion was civil and did not involve the accusing editor in the slightest. The other editors involved in the discussion have not voiced their opposition or made further reverts, though one has made further edits that have not affected the modified content, suggesting that, for that user at least, the content produced as a result of discussion towards consensus was appropriate. I maintain that the accusing editor appears to have a shallow grasp of Wikipedia's good faith principles, and I mean this in no way as a form of personal attack, but as a call-to-action for the individual to learn and engage in more civil and less belligerent forms of dialogue on the platform. It is also worth noting that the accusing editor applied WP:PIA arbitration status to this article only after the discussions and edits in question, making the rather specific nature of his complaint somewhat retroactive in nature, but I personally do not think my good faith actions run afoul of the rules either way. I hope you will agree.
@Johnuniq: What is the difference between accusing someone of WP:RGW and of being partisan? The very notion of WP:RGW is that someone is taking a partisan approach. It is bureaucratic to imply that one is a personal attack and the other is not simply because one is couched in technical language. I am not implying that you are intentionally being bureaucratic, but that the distinction is a bureaucratic one. WP:RGW is just a sub-category of WP:TEND, which defines partisanship. If an AE, outside of the context of normal talk pages and user talk pages, is not the suitable forum for raising the issues of the WP:TEND tendencies of certain users, where is? @Johnuniq: But thank you for your clarification on the principle of concrete outcomes in criticism sections. Though I would ask if divestment (where actual sums are withdraw) is not, in of itself, a concrete outcome? You are also quite correct that I had not fully absorbed the implications of the alert notice posted on my talk page. @Johnuniq: In answer to your specific questions about the Bank Mizrahi-Tefahot articles, I am not hugely vested in it and do not particularly care about the outcome, and I will not be trying to re-add a fully fledged 'criticism' section header or 'Involvement in Israeli settlements' section sub-header, because I now better understand the point about weighting relative to the article as a whole. I did not come up with these section headers spontaneously, but merely replicated the format from other similar sections on other articles, trusting that the editors who placed them there knew what they were doing, but where, in hindsight, the relative weighting may have been a little different. It still seems to me that a divestment by a large fund, as reported by Reuters, is a concrete outcome, and my tendency would still be to include a sentence on it, but I am not emotive about it. I merely made an addition that I thought was notable, based on sources that I thought were notable, in a format that I replicated from the work of other editors on other pages. All that I objected to was the wholesale deletion of material, by and large without discussion, by other editors. @Johnuniq: If you haven't already, please do look at the edits involved in the twinkle episode yourself to decide whether I was undoing good faith edits or not. The title of that talk section is a highly leading one. I believe I was undoing disruptive edits that had re-instated information that was clearly incorrect by the standard definition of the infobox templates - a position another user quickly attested to. However, following the subsequent discussion, I undid the last revision all the same following the criticism and left it to others to edit out the demonstrably incorrect information if they so chose, which they did. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:51, 19 September 2021 (UTC) @HighInBC: Yes, I now realise the distinction between what I thought a revert is, and what a revert is in the technical definition you have mentioned. I had though that a partial re-edit of some of the same material in a different format and location, arrived at as a result of efforts to move towards consensus as per a discussion, was not a simple 'reversion'. But I now realise that the definition is quite broad and that its interpretation can be quite ironclad, particularly on articles perceived to be IP-related, even if they don't contain an edit notice. I also don't think it was totally unreasonable for me not to have understood absolutely all of this prior to this arbitration referral. @HighInBC: I'm getting the hang of the 'comment on the content not the editors' mantra as well. I had assumed that personal attacks meant actual insults, defamation or slander, but not the questioning of motives or truthfulness, but clearly, here too the Wikipedia definition is either very broad or very open to interpretation. I'll admit to getting a little emotive on the subject of my own persecution. But is it also not a problem for editors to demonstrably falsify formal statements in an arbitration forum? NB: Let me once more state plainly that, while I was not aware of and certainly did not fully comprehend the 1RR rules with respect to this conflict area prior to this AE being called, I do now understand the 1RR rules quite clearly, as well as the general principle behind the 1RR and its general merit as a means of de-escalation in all circumstances, as well as the benefits of pursing a more thoughtful, civil and WP:BRD-informed editing approach. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:14, 16 September 2021 (UTC) Statement by 11Fox11[edit]The edit notice is a technicality, and Iskandar323's conduct is sanctionable without the 1RR. They are edit warring in the face of talk page consensus against them and engaging in personal attacks and commentary. On Zakaria Zubeidi they reverted three times: [9][10][11] (and some reverts of IPs). On Bank Mizrahi-Tefahot they also reverted multiple times: [12][13][14], when consensus was against them at Talk:Bank Mizrahi-Tefahot#Hugely undue addition. To this one must add the personal attacks: [15] and [16] against Shrike when notified of 1RR. They also think the 1RR rule doesn't apply to them. 11Fox11 (talk) 08:38, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Selfstudier[edit]Usually we give newer editors the benefit of the doubt, I think an informal warning is sufficient in this case.Selfstudier (talk) 09:24, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000[edit]To editor Shrike: According to WP:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles, an editnotice is required for the General Sanctions to be enforced but Iskandar323 does not have the technical ability to add one. Zerotalk 13:26, 15 September 2021 (UTC) @Shrike: Of course he should obey the rules, but nobody is obliged to add ARBPIA notices. I don't see what you want to take to ARCA as the rule about editnotices has been discussed by ArbCom before and they are unlikely to change it. Zerotalk 13:50, 15 September 2021 (UTC) Statement by GeneralNotability[edit]I'm very tangentially involved here, but wanted to add an observation (not specifically related to the AE violation in question). On 12 September, Iskandar bulk-added a "criticism" section to 30ish company articles (see here, look for the edit summary "Added section"). The bulk of these were added within the span of about half an hour. They were later mass-reverted as "Undue weight" by Mike Rothman2, whom I temp-blocked for undiscussed mass reversion and obvious attempts at permissions gaming. My concern is this: mass addition of "criticism" sections in this manner smacks of WP:RGW/POV-pushing, and I am concerned about whether Iskandar can neutrally in the topic area. GeneralNotability (talk) 14:03, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Inf-in MD[edit]I'd like to draw your attention to recent comments by Iskandar323, where he describes this request against him as a "technicality", and despite the clear language used by Johnuniq below which says the criticism section is undue for the bank's article, that it is due and that there no "hard and fast rule" against it.[20][21]. Maybe a warning is not enough. Inf-in MD (talk) 15:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC) Deepfriedokra I think a ban is taking it a bit too far. My comment above notwithstanding, I find Iskandar323 to be one of the more reasonable editors with whom I disagree on most things. A formally logged warning coupled with his acknowledgment that he understands what he did and will not do it again should suffice. Inf-in MD (talk) 18:34, 16 September 2021 (UTC) Statement by Nableezy[edit]Whether or not something is UNDUE is a matter for the talk page and the NPOV noticeboard, not AE. A user is free to engage wider input on a content dispute, what is needed here is the user acknowledging and agreeing to abide by our edit warring policies. This group of editors that all happen to be on one side of an editing dispute (mustnt call them partisans of course) agitating for a content ruling on a conduct board is a bit troubling, as is their insistence that said content dispute be used to remove an opposing editor. nableezy - 15:59, 16 September 2021 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Iskandar323[edit]
Here since 2014 with 1672 edits is "newish"? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:01, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
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Iskandar323 (2)
[edit]| Iskandar323 topic banned from the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted, for 12 months. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:01, 25 September 2021 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Iskandar323[edit]
Alerted and stated at AE on 17:15, 16 September 2021 that they "did not fully comprehend the 1RR rules with respect to this conflict area prior to this AE being called, I do now understand the 1RR rules quite clearly,"
This is a blatant 1RR violation. The page has an edit notice. This is coupled by canvassing and a personal attack, an issue at the last AE as well. In addition, Iskandar323's talk page has a 20 September warning against edit warring on a whaling article and from 21 September a copyright/copying warning on a food article.
Discussion concerning Iskandar323[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Iskandar323[edit]This is totally inaccurate. In the first example provided, I attempted to restore the infobox to the page after it had been deleted along with a host of other edits two days prior. This was reverted by 11Fox11, and I left it be. The second edit referenced is something completely different altogether and in no way a revert of prior edits. It was something I was working on in the background and is totally unrelated to prior edits on the page. I rewrote the page from the ground up, using academic book and journal sources to provide the beginning of an accurate, sourced background to the origin and use of the eponymous term of the page. It is just a beginning and more work and sourcing needs to be done, but it was a page rescue to push the content back towards the well-documented, peer-reviewed material on the nature of this term and the the academic framework that birthed it. It is possible that as part of this endeavour, some materials may have been removed or misplaced, but not maliciously. Wherever possible I have re-used and re-located all available sources to appropriate sections. Following the edit, I created a talk page entry explaining the rewrite and its purpose and inviting input and comment, so thank you to 11Fox11 for their engagement, although I wish they have simply pointed out any omission on the talk page, as my post invited. As of this moment, I have gladly re-included the source mentioned, and the section it concerns, "Politicisation of the term" is better for it. I still have not had much time to review this section and it still needs cleaning up. In contrast to the claim that I have set about to revert edits on this page, I have actually taken the page further in the direction that 11Fox11 was pushing when they removed the 'inappropriate' infobox. On reflection, I agreed that 11Fox11 was correct and also removed the related demographic information from the article. My edit was precisely aimed at steering the article away from the demographics of Jewish communities originating from the Arab World, which is covered in other articles, and back towards the topic of the specific term that this article addresses. @Free1Soul: I had thought that books/journals without either a url or a doi constituted dead links. If this is not the case, it is possible that I used the dead link template inappropriately. I do now see that I tagged two archived links incorrectly, but you also removed at least one dead link tag from the definitely dead Voice of America story, as well as removed unaddressed citation needed tags, and removed the infobox again (without explanation). Iskandar323 (talk) 18:42, 21 September 2021 (UTC) To editor Deepfriedokra: Hi again, and sorry for the trouble. I wasn't informed by 11Fox11 that they believed I had broken the 1RR rule prior to them raising this fresh AE, and Free1Soul has already rolled back that edit, along with others, so I cannot self-revert. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:48, 21 September 2021 (UTC) To editor Deepfriedokra: Yes, I have been warned. I did not expect to get reported again before I had been warned, and it is playing havoc with the section redirects on this page, but yes, logged warning duly acknowledged. And had I been informed that someone believed I had broken 1RR again and been told to revert, before being reported, I would of course have reverted immediately. No questions asked. No administrators troubled. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:58, 21 September 2021 (UTC) To editor Deepfriedokra: While we are on the subject of POV, and people taking offense, can I just draw you attention to where Free1Soul, in this talk page discussion that I raised to try to broach the subject of their more disruptive edits, such as deleting a stable infobox, not only used the N word in a deeply inappropriate and out of context manner (and frankly I find it offensive just seeing that on the page), but also compared a people being labelled Arab to someone being called the N word. Now I don't know about you, and I can't speak to the technicality of it, but I find that extraordinarily POV and offensive. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:12, 21 September 2021 (UTC) @HighInBC: Reversion was never the intention of my rewrite, which was a painstakingly conducted effort based almost entirely on existing sources from within the extant article. The two principal sources I used were Gottreich and Levy, both of which were pre-existing sources in the article that I simply extracted material from. Sources that were recently added, in edits such as this, including Yehouda and Hannan (2012) and Tal (2017), were also carefully retained. In the complaint itself, the principle argument produced to suggest that this was not a rewrite, but a reversion, appears to be the removal of the word 'contested', as part of an edit numbering in the thousands of bytes (and incidentally a word that does not obviously have a source). Regardless, if this was the principle problem, then it was a simple fix. In the event, I was given no chance to self-revert, and the editor that raised this AE has still not even commented on the use of the word in the relevant talk page discussion. I do now certainly understand the point that Nableezy is making when he says, "if you have been reverted once, stop editing for the day altogether." Meanwhile, the edit that is being counted as the first revert involved the restoration of an infobox that was part of the article long before I had anything to do with it, was content that had nothing to do with me, and which was removed without consensus (and for which no consensus was reached in this talk). The edit in which this was removed, a day earlier was in fact far more sweeping than this, so at very best, this was a partial revert. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:32, 22 September 2021 (UTC) @HighInBC: Hi again, I was not making excuses - only explaining my thought process. I understand that the rules are quite stringent, and breaches are inexcusable, and I was of course not going out of my way to break the 1RR rule amid an existing AE. If I had been alerted to the fact that other editors considered this edit an 1RR breach, I would have self-reverted without question, but I was not alerted and I was given no such opportunity. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:06, 22 September 2021 (UTC) @Deepfriedokra: Yes, I immediately partially reverted by restoring the material that 11Fox11 first stated in the AE had been omitted. I was otherwise unaware which other material was being considered a revert and no full revert was requested. I was also unsure whether it was appropriate to perform a full revert after the AE had already been raised in case this could be construed as evidence tampering or attempting to mask the timeline of events from adjudicating administrators. By the time 11Fox11's broader concerns were stated, a full reversion of the material had already been made by Free1Soul. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:36, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
@Nableezy It would appear that the use of prejudicial terminology is of relatively little note for these proceedings. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:31, 22 September 2021 (UTC) NB: I am perfectly happy to take a break from this tedious conflict area and engagement with the tendentious tendencies of its actors. It is sad, depressing and frankly a waste of breath, bytes and ultimately carbon (wherever the servers are) that there are a whole rank of editors who delight in nothing more than writing up other editors. Imagine how even just the energy spent on these multiple AE referrals could have been better spent on actual editing. And that is precisely what I will be doing - taking my energies elsewhere. There is little point engaging in a content area where undoing takes precedence over doing. But I resent the accusation of incompetence. I am a perfectly competent editor - please do look at my last hurrah, which 11Fox11 has ever so kindly pointed out, and see for yourself. In hindsight, I should have simply uploaded this the first time around, but instead, I unwittingly attempted a more comprehensive re-write and clean-up of what turns out to be an ideological minefield. Clearly, I have not adapted swiftly enough to the particularly cynical brand of counter-editing that appears all-pervasive in this conflict area. But perhaps I do not wish to. Better, mayhaps, to find an area of concern that is less of a toxic soup, and where a little more good can be done. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:58, 23 September 2021 (UTC) @Hut 8.5: I respect your opinion, but, for the record, I didn't accuse any editors of vandalism. I consulted Selfstudier, an editor far more experienced than myself, who I had previously been discussing technical issues with, for their opinion on the matter. I stated that "my instinct was" that the infobox deletion constituted 'vandalism' ('possible vandalism' in the accompanying edit note), but also noted that I had not taken action and was conscious of my own need to steer clear of potentially questionable reverts. I never made a direct accusation of vandalism, and the experienced editor I consulted duly informed that this was an inappropriate line of thinking Re: the standing definitions of vandalism. I then raised the subject in a talk page discussion where I refrained from the use of the term vandalism following the feedback from Selfstudier. More than a day later, when no satisfactory response had been provided in the talk page as to why the infobox had been deleted (instead of improved or re-sourced), I then undertook a partial revert to restore it. My subsequent edit that day was what I can only describe as an extreme error of judgement, and you are right that I stated that I understood the 1RR rules, but clearly I slightly misunderstood the brightness of the bright red line. I had thought that a re-write on the scale that I undertook would not simply be construed as 'a revert of different material', but be taken in the context of the broader restructuring of the article that I attempted. I was evidently misguided in my actions and how they would be viewed, as well as overambitious in my undertaking. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:00, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Selfstudier[edit]At this stage could someone point out to me where on the talk page (his or the article) Iskandar323 has been invited to self revert the alleged 1R breach as per usual practice?Selfstudier (talk) 17:19, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Free1Soul[edit]Selfstudier, in this disruptive edit, Iskandar323 tagged around 20 refs as dead links. Most of those tags were wrong, either tagging live links (or links with archive versions) or tagging refs with no urls (books and journals), in which there was no url that was dead. Free1Soul (talk) 18:15, 21 September 2021 (UTC) Iskandar323 is pushing his pov over and over in the page. He is not listening. Free1Soul (talk) 18:18, 21 September 2021 (UTC) Deepfriedokra, Iskandar323 is not accurately portraying my comment. "Arab Jew" is a term that most Mizrahi Jews (the so labelled "Arab Jews") find offensive, this is what sources say. I did not use the N word. I said that labelling populations, that reject this term, as "Arab Jews" in the infobox was inappropriate - inappropriate in the same manner as adding a population box to the article Nigger (or for that matter Kike or any other offensive term that has an article on Wikipedia). The example article was one where it would be obvious a population box would be out of the question. The reasons why "Arab Jew" are offensive to us Mizrahim are complex and have many layers, but one important layer is that it erases Jewish ethnic identity, reducing the Jewish identity to a religion, putting those labelled outside the Jewish people and into a different ethnic group. Use of this term implies we are less Jewish than other Jews. My point was that labelling people who do not identify themselves with this term in the infobox was unappropriate. Free1Soul (talk) 19:38, 21 September 2021 (UTC) Statement by Nableezy[edit]The argument about the N-word is obscene (Arab Jew is in fact a widely used term, objected to by some, not most as the bs above claims), and a user who thinks that is a valid argument to make should think carefully about accusing others of "POV-pushing". As far as the reverts, Iskandr, you need to slow down. If you get reverted stop editing the article for a day. Boom, never have a 1RR violation again. nableezy - 21:47, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Geshem Bracha[edit]Most Sephardic Jews object to this language. Nableezy links to a book by Shenhav who is one of the promoters of this language. Shenhav noted himself in an article that: ""it is not surprising that very few Jews of Arab descent, in Israel, would label themselves ‘Arab Jews’. It has turned out to be the marker of a cultural and political avant-garde. Most of those who used it, did so in order to challenge the Zionist order of things (i.e., ‘methodological Zionism’; see Shenhav, 2006) and for political reasons (Levy, 2008)" in [22] (taken from article). Most (around 90%) Mizrahi Jews live in Israel. Shenhav, who promotes the term, says "very few" of them would use this label and that use of this label is a political marker. This is a very loaded language to use.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 09:14, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Iskandar323[edit]
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Piedpiper186
[edit]| Blocked indef as a normal admin action. El_C 10:43, 27 September 2021 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Piedpiper186[edit]
I'm not good at these processes, so apologies if I'm doing it incorrect, but their talkpage speaks for my concerns.
Discussion concerning Piedpiper186[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Piedpiper186[edit]Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Piedpiper186[edit]
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Selfstudier
[edit]| Withdrawn by filer, who hopefully had learned some valuable lessons along the way. Mostly about how WP:AE is meant to facilitate WP:DR, not the other way around. El_C 21:05, 30 September 2021 (UTC) |
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Request concerning Selfstudier[edit]
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
Discussion concerning Selfstudier[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Selfstudier[edit]On 24 September, an editor removed material from the lead and placed it in the body instead. There were then intervening edits and continuing discussions on the talk page in the normal course. Then because the lead at that point contained zero criticism (on the 29th), I made a summary of some of what was in the body as criticism and added it to the lead as is normal practice (it's not even exactly the same although I agree it is similar). A revert would have been taking the same material back out of the body and reinserting it into the lead. The second diff is a revert, I made that straightaway because there was an ongoing discussion at the NPOV noticeboard where an editor gave his opinion and then came to the article and reverted in order to enforce his opinion, which I thought was an unreasonable thing to do. I asked 11Fox11 several times to explain what the second revert was a revert of and he declined to do so even though I said that if he could convince me that I had breached 1R I would of course fix it but he just ignored that and filed here. He has now reverted the material out of the lead himself so even if my editing was considered a revert, I would not be able to self revert it anyway. This is not collaborative behavior. Selfstudier (talk) 19:16, 30 September 2021 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Selfstudier[edit]
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ZScarpia
[edit]| ZScarpia is warned against using subpar sources, anywhere on the project, to discuss living or recently deceased persons. Nableezy is cautioned to keep to their promise about moderating their tone. Will log. El_C 13:29, 12 October 2021 (UTC) |
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This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning ZScarpia[edit]
I looked into ZScarpia following a blog post by David Collier from 23 September 2021 that was brought to my attention. I disagree with Collier in general, and with much of the specific blog post, however I was concerned by Collier detailing how ZScarpia smeared him on a Wikipedia talk page using extremely dubious sources and I decided to probe deeper into this aspect. I have thoroughly vetted this particular claim by Collier, and uncovered additional and systematic use of this very dubious blog by ZScarpia. ZScarpia's posting of false smears against a living he is in a feud, in regards to Palestine/Israel, requires attention.
ZScarpia indicated on 17:31, 28 August 2021 that Collier "is not a fan" of his. ZScarpia has a long history of using Tony Greenstein as a source on Israel, Jews, and related biographies and organisations :
This list was compiled by searching for "azvsas.blogspot" and tonygreenstein.com in Wikipedia, ZScarpia is the sole user here posting these links recently. ZScarpia use of a blog by a person whom the UK legal system upheld the descriptor 'notorious antisemite' was legitimate viewpoint for posting forumish talk page smears on Jewish persons is unbecoming conduct.--Hippeus (talk) 20:39, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
Discussion concerning ZScarpia[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by ZScarpia[edit]I'm assuming that I won't be allowed the time it would personally take me to work up a decent response in one go. To break things down, I think the best approach would be to address a particular editor's statements in turn, starting, probably, as the statements are presented in list form, with Levivich's. Just prior to raising this request, Hippeus went through a series of talkpages removing large chunks of my comments ([35][36][37][38][39]) in a manner which, I think, doesn't show his or her own editing in a good light. There was no attempt at discussion. A less belligerent editor might have actually have attempted to ask me what the purpose of my comments was before assuming that there was none. The deletions weren't signed, so there is no indication of who did the removals or when. My impression has been that comments should not be removed unless they very clearly break the rules, and even then, only if it serves to reduce disruption rather than increase it, yet the reasons supplied for, at least, the bulk of the removals have a pretty tenuous justification. ← ZScarpia 16:21, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
(Comments I made about David Collier seem to be of most concern, so, perhaps saving everyone's time and hopefully without trying everybody's patience, I'll address Levivich's first three points on their own. An opportunity to comment before the request is closed would be appreciated.) * Talk:Israel lobby in the United Kingdom: The two talkpage sections involved: [40][41].
← ZScarpia 14:44, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
← ZScarpia 19:16, 29 September 2021 (UTC) (Please ask me to stop if this has continued beyond the point of tedium)
As mentioned on the talkpage, contrary to what Inf-in MD claims, the person being referred is dead and so it's a bit dubious that WP:BLP applies. It was being claimed that the writer in question, from a blog of whose material was being inserted in the article, is "an ideal source for her perspective regardless as to whether one is Zionist or anti-Zionist." The quote shows that anti-Zionists would probably disagree. ← ZScarpia 17:22, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
@El C:: "I will stop using low quality sources for BLPs would have sufficed." Above I made an admission that I screwed up by misinterpreting what was supposed to be the reliable source providing verification for the statement about David Collier. The situation wasn't helped by a number of things. Firstly, what was displayed after clicking on the link for that source, a Jewish News webpage, changed. Secondly, the other links I provided were interpreted as having been provided as reliable sources for verification purposes, which was not actually the case. They had, in fact, been supplied to provide further information and back up the Jewish News article. I am aware of the BLP requirement for verifiability and neutrality on any page, including talkpages. In the response to Rosguill's last comment I have been working on, I was going to deal with solutions to the confusion my talkpage comments have clearly produced, such as making clear what the purpose of the links I had provided were. I came very late to the discussion, which had grown quite bulky by the time I arrived. I'm still struggling to get to grips with it. I haven't read everything let alone absorbed it. The last couple of days were spent trying to figure out how best to go about responding and then actually write something. Probably like everybody in my position (and, overall I haven't had much practice at it), you do kind of expect people to wait to hear both sides before coming to conclusions. What pain I might have been saved if only I'd been home earlier or away longer! ← ZScarpia 21:48, 30 September 2021 (UTC) @El C:: "ZScarpia, doesn't feel like you're getting it. When it comes to advancing any sort of BLP assertions of note, those kind of sources are strictly prohibited (and their usage otherwise is strongly discouraged irrespectively)." Thank you. That's clear and understandable. I'm sorry for the disruption and wasted time I caused. ← ZScarpia 00:06, 1 October 2021 (UTC) I've now had more of a chance to fully get to grips with what was being said and to make sense of it. ← ZScarpia 12:18, 1 October 2021 (UTC) @El C:: I hope that striking out and substituting new text resolves any BLP problem. Please just delete the whole comment otherwise. ← ZScarpia 18:02, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
@Rosguill: Lest it look rude that I hadn't replied to your last comment, please know that I had been working on a response. One thing I'd like to mention which might help to explain some of the editing pecularities observed is that I have a personal rule not to directly edit the articles of people I don't like. ← ZScarpia 00:34, 1 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by Selfstudier[edit]I'm a little confused as to how this fits into Arbpia? Is the complaint based on the material related only to the page Israel lobby in the United Kingdom? If so, what is the relevance of all the other material? It seems more like a blp complaint rather than Arbpia? Selfstudier (talk) 21:45, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000[edit]David Collier is a blogger and activist who <redacted>. A typical article title is (admins: I revdelled this as it includes outing). Now ZScarpia quotes some sources that are "negative" (it is claimed) about Collier on a talk page. It should be observed that this case is practically a copy-paste of a portion of that article of Collier. Nearly the whole thing is there. To see the worth of this, Collier claims it is a "smear" to associate him with a twitter account "well-known for exposing antisemites" (Collier's words). Since Collier himself claims to be dedicated to exposing antisemites, exactly why is it a smear? It might be correct or incorrect, but claiming it is a smear is transparently a tendentious way to attack Zscarpia and nothing else. This case should be dismissed. Zerotalk 03:27, 26 September 2021 (UTC) Geshem Bracha claims "ZScarpia uses a blog post from Greenstein to defend David Irving’s credentials as a historian". Everyone can see that in fact ZScarpia is quoting verbatim from the judgement of the Irving-Lipstadt libel case, which is quite rightly considered a major indictment of Irving. ZScarpia has included all of this section of the judge's remarks as well as the negative caveat in the following section. It doesn't matter a damn where ZScarpia found the link to the trial judgement. Moreover, ZScarpia included more of the judgement than Greenstein quoted, so it is not true that ZScarpia just quoted from Greenstein. ZScarpia is perfectly entitled to choose which part of the trial judgement to quote. Altogether, this is a false charge and Geshen Bracha should withdrawn it. Zerotalk 08:55, 26 September 2021 (UTC) Also, Geshem Bracha, the fact that Collier tells lies about me does not mean I have to shut up about him. Your "Nazis" comment is a severe and blatant violation of NPA. Zerotalk 07:52, 26 September 2021 (UTC) Geshem Bracha, I gave a source but I had to rev-del it as it includes outing. Admins here can look at what I rev-delled and see that my charge was eminently justified. Your "hint" that ZScarpia is a holocaust denier for quoting from a judge who concluded that Irving is a holocaust denier was simply outrageous. And the modified version of your "Nazis" attack is no better than the first version. I hope ZScarpia starts a case against you at AN/I to have you blocked. Zerotalk 08:18, 26 September 2021 (UTC) Just to be clear, all of the diffs provided against ZScarpia are for talk pages. There is no rule against mentioning unreliable sources on talk pages. In particular, in the process of robustly assessing the reliability of sources (as we are all required to do) it is often useful to discuss sources of all kinds. Provided the unreliable sources don't get into articles, this is just normal editing. Zerotalk 09:38, 26 September 2021 (UTC) More detail: Exactly why is it a BLP violation to suggest David Collier is associated with Gnasher Jew? Nobody seems to be addressing that basic point. It could be OR or a RS violation, but that doesn't belong here. By Collier's own description, the Gnasher Jew twitter account is "well-known for exposing antisemites". Collier's description of his own mission is to "expose lies and antisemitism". The two are almost the same. People are writing as if ZScarpia wrote that Collier murdered his mother, not just with being associated with a ideologically compatible activist. Zerotalk 02:03, 30 September 2021 (UTC) Statement by Geshen Bracha[edit]Zero0000 and ZScarpia have a COI on Collier and shouldn’t be writing anything about him. ZScarpia systemic use of Tony Greenstein is beyond the pale, this is a person described as a “notorious antisemite” and who was expelled from Labour for mocking the Holocaust term Final Solution. I found ZScarpia using Greenstein in another instance: in this post from September 2020, ZScarpia uses a blog post from Greenstein to defend David Irving’s credentials as a historian. Irving is a well known Holocaust denier.
Statement by GizzyCatBella[edit]
Is Geshem Bracha accusing Zero0000 and ZScarpia of being Nazis!? Am I reading that correctly? - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:37, 26 September 2021 (UTC) Statement by Shrike[edit]The problem is not using unreliable sources on talk the problem is violation of WP:BLPTALK. We are not allowed to put negative statements without high quality WP:RS. --Shrike (talk) 10:21, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
@Rosguill: The problem that user use the same rhetoric on talk page too [51],[52]. It doesn't really matter if his accusation are true or not there is a place for such discussion I for example have my reservation too about some users but I keep it to myself. This area is already toxic such rhetoric doesn't help build Wikipedia. --Shrike (talk) 15:18, 6 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by Levivich[edit]WP:BLPTALK says At Talk:Israel lobby in the United Kingdom:
At Talk:David Miller (sociologist):
From 2018: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive984#NOTFORUM at Talk:Campaign Against Antisemitism, which is about ZScarpia violating NOTAFORUM by linking to unreliable sources in forum-y talk page posts. Two examples:
So, this has been going on for some time now, and I think we need some assurance from ZScarpia that it won't happen again. WP:BLPTALK also says: Zero wrote above: Zero wrote above: Zero wrote:
@Rosguill: quite disheartening to hear you say
Statement by Hemiauchenia[edit]David Collier is a hyperpartisan pro-Israel blogger who has levelled numerous absurd hyperbolic accusations against Wikipedia, including that it is "At war with the Jews" [68], and is "the most active spreader of antisemitism on the planet" [69]. I don't think that any of their claims can be taken seriously. That said, BLP restrictions do apply, and I have no view on whether ZScarpia has violatem them with regards to David Collier. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:53, 26 September 2021 (UTC) Statement by Nableezy[edit]The idea that because some living person is upset with the coverage of them on Wikipedia means that they get to disparage our editors and in so doing so veto who may discuss them is asinine. That a living person makes things up about an editor does not make it so that editor has a conflict of interest, and no Zero nor ZScarpia do not need to stop discussing said person. Yes they should use reliable sources when doing so, but somebody making bullshit claims on their blog about an editor does not make it so that this editor has a COI. That is beyond stupid and would allow any person to disqualify any editor they choose from editing their biography. The lockstep support for such an absurd report is also a bit concerning imo. nableezy - 15:43, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
The regularity in which editors on one side of a POV divide are coming here pushing such straight up garbage accusations is really more concerning than any part of this complaint. And the socks of banned users who regularly return to spare with their former adversaries. nableezy - 16:50, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
@El C:, sure, will cite diffs next time. But since you said you arent looking for them now, will just go back to working on that SPI. But I assure you, it is not a fire and forget accusation. I will be filing an SPI hopefully within the week. I think you mistook my "Jesus, that escalated quickly." That was a remark about how the sanctions on unrelated pages had escalated by ArbCom, not by you. I was surprised at the ruling that made ECP preferred for unrelated articles. That was the escalation (the clarification by ArbCom, not by you) I referred to. nableezy - 01:33, 4 October 2021 (UTC) El C, I apologize for using "garbage accusations" about a user saying that it is an OUTING violation to connect somebody, not a Wikipedia editor, with a twitter account, again not a Wikipedia account. I will figure out another way of characterizing what I think fails even the most basic reading of the first sentence of WP:OUTING (where it says another editor's personal information). As far as the socking accusation, it was in reference to Inf-in MD, and I still promise that SPI is coming this week. nableezy - 14:41, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
I will not again refer to Inf-in MD as a NoCal100 sock until an SPI is filed. nableezy - 15:30, 6 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by 11Fox11[edit]The use of Tony Greenstein's blog, whose blog posts were deemed offensive enough to result in a Labour expulsion, is not reasonable. ZScarpia has not backed down from using this blog in their comments here. GnasherJew is an anonymous account (it was reinstated) so tying real people to the account is a form of outing, which is serious here given the amount of vitriol here directed at Jewish activists in the UK. Collier has denied being GnasherJew after ZScarpia's comments on Wikipedia. Zero0000, Gnasher Jew and Collier probably disagree on any number of issues. Just because they both are counter-antisemitism activists does not mean they agree on all other issues. Liz Truss and Priti Patel would probably object to being mixed up even though they are both minsters from the same party. Saying somebody is somebody else is a smear. This is beyond the outing aspect. 11Fox11 (talk) 13:25, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
Statement by Inf-in MD[edit]Despite claiming he understands what he did wrong, I don't think ZScarpia actually does. Immediately after assuring us he's had time to reflect on this, he posted the following diaprging comments about a living person here. There's no link given, but it can easily be verified that this comes from Mondonoweiss, another group blog of poor quality and dubious reliability. [70] . User:Deepfriedokra recommendation of a BLP-ban seems reasonable. Inf-in MD (talk) 14:40, 1 October 2021 (UTC) Comment by GoodDay[edit]FWIW, I wish the lad would remove the arrow pointing left from his signature. Kinda distracting. GoodDay (talk) 21:56, 7 October 2021 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning ZScarpia[edit]
Unless there are objections, I'll be closing this complaint in a day or so with a logged warning to ZScarpia about subpar sources and BLP (logged at ARBPIA, however), and a caution to Nableezy about keeping to their promise (i.e. tone police thyself, please, no one likes it doing it). El_C 12:55, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
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