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Talk:Race and intelligence - Wikipedia Jump to content

Talk:Race and intelligence

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Former good article nomineeRace and intelligence was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 14, 2005Articles for deletionKept
June 24, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
July 18, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
August 25, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
December 4, 2006Articles for deletionKept
April 11, 2011Articles for deletionKept
February 24, 2020Deletion reviewOverturned
February 29, 2020Articles for deletionKept
Current status: Former good article nominee

Anyone around who can check recent edits for Richard Lynn?

[11] Thanks. Doug Weller talk 13:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Genome-wide association study recent changes

Editors who follow this page will probably take an interest in recent edits over at Genome-wide association study. MrOllie (talk) 21:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And, a bit more distantly, Talk:Gynoid fat distribution#Gynoid fat and skeletons. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:12, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction is inflammatory

"no evidence for a genetic component"

The article still states: "The scientific consensus is that there is no evidence for a genetic component behind IQ differences between racial groups", with nine(!) sources supposedly supporting this claim. Why do we need nine distinct sources to support such a claim? Is it perhaps because the phrase "no evidence" is inherently and intentionally misleading? Because there is in fact an abundance of evidence for a genetic component, but it simply gets dismissed as fringe, aka "bad" science.

'Saying there is ‘no evidence’ of something isn’t not lazy or bad science reporting (or other talk). It is definitely both of those, but that is not what it centrally is. No evidence is a magic phrase used to intentionally manipulate understanding by using a motte and bailey between ‘this is false’ and statements of the form ‘this has not been proven using properly peer reviewed randomized controlled trials with p less than 0.05.’ It makes one sound Responsible and Scientific in contrast to those who update their beliefs based on the information they acquire, no matter the source.

...

This is not an ‘honest’ mistake. This is a systematic anti-epistemic superweapon engineered to control what people are allowed and not allowed to think based on social power, in direct opposition to any and all attempts to actually understand and model the world and know things based on one’s information. Anyone wielding it should be treated accordingly.[12]

Stonkaments (talk) 07:27, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's cliche to say at this point, but it's still true: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and where is this evidence of a genetic component? Harryhenry1 (talk) 08:06, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
1) That's a popular aphorism, not Wikipedia policy.
2) In fact, the extraordinary claim here is that no evidence of a genetic component exists. What is the evidence that supports that claim?
3) As requested, here is a sampling of the evidence of a genetic component:[13][14][15]. You may not like it, you may call it "fringe", but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Stonkaments (talk) 09:40, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not denying that this kind of research exists, just the claim that there's any actual proof of the differences being genetic seems dubious. Indeed, citing the likes of Richard Lynn, J. Philippe Rushton, and Emil Kirkegaard for your evidence isn't gonna convince anyone here. Harryhenry1 (talk) 11:14, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
All of the sources with excerpts in the notes do not say that there is no evidence. They say that there is scientific consensus that racial IQ differences are not genetic, and one says polemically that no relevant genes have ever been identified. You should read the sources and change the prose to match what they say, because from what I see, no source goes so far as to say that there is "no evidence" for a genetic component to the differences. Zanahary 09:01, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone ahead and done so. Zanahary 09:04, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@LokiTheLiar has reverted me, saying that the sources were better reflected by the "no evidence" phrasing. Loki, do any of these sources actually say that there is no evidence for a genetic component? Zanahary 18:14, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Gathered quotations in order of cite anchors:
1. "Recent articles claim that the folk categories of race are genetically meaningful divisions, and that evolved genetic differences among races and nations are important for explaining immutable differences in cognitive ability, educational attainment, crime, sexual behavior, and wealth; all claims that are opposed by a strong scientific consensus to the contrary".
2. "There is an emerging consensus about racial and gender equality in genetic determinants of intelligence, most researchers, including ourselves, agree that genes do not explain between-group differences".
3. "It is worth remembering that no genes related to difference in cognitive skills across the various racial and ethnic groups have ever been discovered. The argument for genetic differences has been carried forward largely by circumstantial evidence. Of course, tomorrow afternoon genetic mechanisms producing racial and ethnic differences in intelligence might be discovered, but there have been a lot of investigations, and tomorrow has not come for quite some time now."
4. Waiting for access to this one.
5. I don't really know how to excerpt this one, but it's an argument that racial IQ gaps are environmental based on test scores, not a holistic evaluation of evidence, and says nothing like "there is no evidence" for a genetic component.
6. As there remains no way to gather evidence that would permit the direct refutation of the environmental hypotheses, and no direct evidence for the hereditarian position, it remains the case, I argue, that the hereditarian position is unsupported by current evidence.
7. "[T]he claims that genetics defines racial groups and makes them different, that IQ and cultural differences among racial groups are caused by genes, and that racial inequalities within and between nations are the inevitable outcome of long evolutionary processes are neither new nor supported by science (either old or new)."
8. Don't know how to excerpt this either, but it's a counter to a specific racial argument by a scientist named Jensen, and never says anything like the statement in prose that it ostensibly supports.
9. It is sometimes suggested that the Black/White differential in psychometric intelligence is partly due to genetic differences (Jensen, 1972). There is not much direct evidence on this point, but what little there is fails to support the genetic hypothesis.
To me, these sources can be taken to support prose that says the scientific consensus is against a genetic explanation for racial IQ gaps, or that the genetic thesis is unsupported by evidence—but not one says there is "no evidence". Zanahary 18:31, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Zanahary here. His suggested language is clearer and just as consistent with the sources. The "no evidence" language was reflective of a time when it was difficult to get stable text in place because of persistent disruption in the topic area. The more recent sources in particular, esp. Bird et al., are more emphatic that the hereditarian hypothesis is flatly false. Generalrelative (talk) 19:42, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
My interpretation of Zanahary's edit is that he thinks the sourcing is insufficient (it's not) and is trying to weaken the wording as a result. I see you interpret the resulting wording as actually stronger, which I disagree with: if I wanted to strengthen it I would say that there is no genetic component behind IQ differences between racial groups, not merely that IQ differences between racial groups cannot be attributed to genetic factors. That sounds weasel-y to me: attributed by who? It's not a matter of attribution, it's a matter of facts. Loki (talk) 21:12, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The sourcing is definitely insufficient to say "there is no evidence", because no source says that. I’m not trying to weaken wording, I’m trying to reflect sources, which generally say that the scientific consensus is environmental and the genetic thesis is unsupported by evidence. Zanahary 21:32, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This conversation has been had many times before and the consensus has always been that "the genetic thesis is unsupported by evidence" = "there is no evidence". But I also think that your wording is more to-the-point and clearer to the reader. I don't get a weasely vibe from it, but I also respect Loki's intuitions a great deal, so I'm open to being persuaded. It might just be a matter of differing perspectives. Generalrelative (talk) 23:07, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
#4 Mackintosh 2001 is available at archive. Conclusion has: One could reasonably defend Nisbett's[citing [16]] argument that the gap was entirely environmental in origin.[speaking to test score gap] But it would probably be even more reasonable to acknowledge that the evidence is simply not sufficient to provide a definitive answer one way or the other—and possibly never will be. fiveby(zero) 20:49, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! This would support text saying the thesis is unsupported by evidence. Zanahary 21:33, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I like: Turkheimer E. (2024). "IQ, Race, and Genetics". Understanding the Nature‒Nurture Debate. Understanding Life. Cambridge University Press. pp. 132–147. {{cite book}}: Wikipedia Library link in |chapter-url= (help) Would not really support either way as a citation concerning "evidence" ("half-baked evidence", "no evidence worth pursuing") but worth reading i think. fiveby(zero) 21:56, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The reason one of the sources is "polemical" is that it's a cherry picked quote. A much more representative, explicit quote (p. 436, the conclusion of the " Biological Causes for Racial and Ethnic Differences" section):
"Plausible cases can be made for both genetic and environmental contributions to differences in intelligence. The evidence required to quantify the relative sizes of these contributions to group differences is lacking. The relative sizes of environmental and genetic influences will vary over time and place. Some of these influences may be amenable to change, while others will be resistant to change. The relevant questions can be studied. Denials or overly precise statements on either the pro-genetic or pro-environmental side do not move the debate forward. They generate heat rather than light.
And this is what I really believe!" Hi! (talk) 22:59, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
available at archive btw https://archive.org/details/EarlHuntHumanIntelligence2010/page/n452/mode/1up Hi! (talk) 23:03, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Meta-Analysis & Rushton

Pinging @Generalrelative: We just edit conflicted. I'm okay with removing that sentence about Rushton if you don't like it, even though it's in my latest edit. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:44, 28 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ah no worries. I didn't have time to consult the cited source. I'd say if the source singles out Rushton for special consideration then the sentence is DUE, and not if not. Generalrelative (talk) 18:05, 28 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
From a quick scan of the source, it seems that all three outliers –– Murray (2006), Gottfredson (2005), and Rushton (2012) –– are given roughly equal consideration. We could discuss the ways in which each of these outliers were flawed, or we could leave it at a general summary. I'd say that highlighting Rushton in particular is probably UNDUE. Note too that this source is really a lit review rather than a meta-analysis, so our text in article space should reflect that. Generalrelative (talk) 18:13, 28 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Funny how three names best known for pushing the fringe theory that IQ differences between racial groups are genetic are the only ones who didn't find a narrowing of the gap... (To be fair, research Murray did a year later did find a narrowing).
In any event, I agree with your take. The author doesn't single out Rushton.
Also, good catch on 'meta-analysis' to 'literature review'. I feel a little dumb for not noticing that myself. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:11, 28 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Lol, sooner or later we all get mud in our eye! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Generalrelative (talk) 03:18, 29 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's way too funny, lol. Yeah, I actually thought "has this been published in a PRJ? But then I saw a squirrel and all thoughts flew from my pretty lil head. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:45, 29 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]