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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Georgina Bruni (3rd nomination) - Wikipedia Jump to content

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Georgina Bruni (3rd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. There is good faith disagreement as to the reliability of the most substantive sourced provided here. Even assigning full weight to the "keep" opinions the arguments against those sources have more support, and per our WP:PAGs relevant to evaluating sources in topics with fringe viewpoints, I'm inclined to give some "keeps" less-than-full weight. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:24, 13 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Georgina Bruni

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AfDs for this article:

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Georgina Bruni (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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This BLPbiography on a UFO enthusiast has had unresolved notability tags for the last nine years. It is sourced to non-RS such as the subject's own email newsletter "Hot Gossip", UFO fanzines, Ancient Aliens host Nick Pope's website, etc.. It also has a WP:PRIMARY and a single reference in The Independent.

  • Fails GNG: A WP:BEFORE on JSTOR returns nothing. A BEFORE on Google Books finds numerous instances of her being quoted and profiled in non-RS UFO cruft. A BEFORE on Google News finds copious instances of her being quoted or mentioned in "weird news" features on flying saucers in RS [1] but nothing which contains enough biographical information to crest WP:SIGCOV.
  • Fails NAUTHOR: She does not meet the standards of WP:NAUTHOR on the basis of review of her book. WP:NAUTHOR unambiguously affirms the multiple review test is the second of a two-part requirement: "created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work" and "In addition", such work must have been the primary subject of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews" We do not have an RS that establishes she has created a "well-known work", ergo, it doesn't pass the first part of the two-part NAUTHOR test, and no quantity of book reviews will remedy that.

Chetsford (talk) 20:18, 30 August 2025 (UTC); 01:20, 31 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I decline. Both sources you added are unambiguously non-RS / independent.
  • You Can't Tell the People: The Definitive Account of the Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery is written by Bruni herself and is therefore not WP:INDEPENDENT. The foreword is written by Nick Pope, the emcee of "Ancient Aliens: Live On Tour!" [2] — a traveling UFO carnival associated with the History Channel which posits giant Martians built the pyramids with magic gravity beams.
  • Journal of Scientific Exploration, the source for the Grove article, is associated with the Society for Scientific Exploration a crank, pseudoscience group.
Chetsford (talk) 01:14, 31 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The book that was added was not Bruni's book, and it discusses her activities at some length. Your comment strikes me as very WP:IDONTLIKE but I understand you don't want to withdraw the AfD so it will run its course, Oblivy (talk) 01:48, 31 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, you're right, you added Encounter in Rendlesham Forest : the inside story of the world's best-documented UFO incident [3] , written by Nick Pope, emcee of "Ancient Aliens: Live On Tour!" [4] — a traveling UFO carnival associated with the History Channel which posits giant Martians built the pyramids with magic gravity beams. Still not RS. Chetsford (talk) 02:16, 31 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
An author is presumed notable if:
  1. 1 The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors...or
  2. 3 The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work
There is ample evidence her work is regarded as important among her peers, i.e., the paranormal community. Her book is clearly regarded as significant within the field. It is not relevant if we think she and their peers lack credibility, as long as we stay within WP:FRINGE. This article is not promoting her ideas as truthful (or really promoting them at all), so that's not an issue and even if it was it could be cleaned up.
With respect to the Journal of Scientific Exploration there has been some discussion at WP:RSN about it but there has never been a community consensus that it is not RS. Oblivy (talk) 10:51, 1 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I've opened an RfC with respect to the JSE at WP:RSN. Chetsford (talk) 16:44, 3 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Left guide (talk) 22:28, 6 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - for me this doesn't directly pass GNG and is sitting around WP:FRIND and thus WP:FRINGE. The RS here, The Independent, relates less to Ms. Bruni and more to how the MOD finds itself having to deal with UFO-ology. I don't object to the suggested re-direct.
ChrysGalley (talk) 21:40, 7 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. The subject passes Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria, which says:

    People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject.

    • If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability.

    Sources

    1. MacLean, Lorna (2000-11-23). "The night the aliens landed". The Herald. ProQuest 332754286. Archived from the original on 2025-09-08. Retrieved 2025-09-08.

      The article notes: "Georgina Bruni, 47, has gained access to police files and Ministry of Defence and United States military sources. ... Now living in London, she is the last person you would expect to be involved with UFO mysteries. No anorak here. Blonde and chatty, it is hard to picture her grilling eye-witnesses or dealing with tight-lipped military staff while asking impertinent questions about flying saucers. ... Ms Bruni works from her London home and does high-profile PR work as well as writing. She was raised in Cumbernauld after her father moved to the area for work. She got to know the city of Glasgow as a student at the Art School before her first office job landed her in the shadowy world of the private eye. ... Ms Bruni eventually left Scotland and travelled extensively through Europe and across America. The closest she came to looking into more bizarre aspects of life was investigating religious cults and their members. It wasn't until 1997 that interest in UFOs reached a new height and suddenly people were talking about what happened in Rendelsham Forest years before."

    2. Pope, Nick Pope; Burroughs, John; Penniston, Jim (2014). Encounter in Rendlesham Forest: The Inside Story of the World's Best-Documented UFO Incident. New York: Thomas Dunne Books. pp. 159, 175, 212, 215. ISBN 978-1-250-03810-4. Retrieved 2025-09-08 – via Google Books.

      I've reviewed the arguments against this book's reliability and consider it sufficiently reliable. This book was published by the reputable publisher Thomas Dunne Books. I've reviewed the Wikipedia article Nick Pope (journalist) and did not find anything indicating he is unreliable. His involvement in the television show Ancient Aliens does not by itself make him an unreliable source. Even if this source were excluded, the other sources combined allow Georgina Bruni to pass Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria.

      The book notes on page 159: "The evidence for this Porton Down connection is inconclusive. On the plus side, it comes from author and investigative journalist Georgina Bruni, who had strong links with the MoD. On the minus side, Bruni's sources for this story were apparently RAF Police officers whose names are not known – Bruni declined to share their identities, on the basis that one was still serving and was wary of repercussions."

      The book notes on page 175: "Georgina Bruni led a remarkable life and worked variously as a go-go dancer, fashion designer, and nightclub manager. She traveled extensively and at various times lived in Jersey, Italy, Hong Kong, and America before settling in London in 1992. She wrote poetry, designed a positive-thinking course, and founded one of the United Kingdom's first online magazines, called Hot Gossip. She was a former director of the Yacht Club, where she was involved in hosting social events for MPs, diplomats, and MoD officials. Later on she became a PR consultant and ran a social club, Le Club 2000. It was through her involvement with the Yacht Club that she first began to mix with various MoD, military, intelligence, and diplomatic staff."

      The book notes on page 212: "In 1997 the UK's former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher (subsequently Baroness Thatcher) was caught up in the controversy over the Rendlesham Forest incident. The instigator of this was the irrepressible Georgina Bruni, the author and journalist who would later secure the release of the MoD's file on the Rendlesham Forest incident (though not, of course, the DIS file(s), which were mysteriously destroyed) by using the Code of Practice on Access to Government Information. Bruni was very well connected in political and diplomatic circles and in 1997 she attended a charity dinner in London where Baroness Thatcher was the guest of honor."

      The book notes on page 215: "Georgina Bruni died in 2008 and left no further records of her dealings with Baroness Thatcher on these matters."

    3. Hogan, David J. (2016). UFO FAQ: All That's Left to Know About Roswell, Aliens, Whirling Discs and Flying Saucers. Milwaukee, Wisconsin: Backbeat Books. ISBN 978-1-4803-9385-1. Retrieved 2025-09-08 – via Google Books.

      The book notes: "The case inspired books other than Penniston's, including investigative journalist Georgina Bruni's You Can't Tell the People (2000), which levies the charge of deception against the CIA, and claims that that agency undercut witnesses by artificially inducing memories and amnesia. (The late Bruni, whose birth name was Linda Naylor, maintained a busy schedule as a private investigator and professional writer. Other than her Rendlesham book, she is best recalled for her online magazine Hot Gossip.)"

    4. "Pandora". The Independent. 2000-12-13. ProQuest 311850297. Archived from the original on 2025-09-08. Retrieved 2025-09-08.

      The article notes: "The publication of a book about a supposed UFO visitation to this green and pleasant land seems to have caused more of a stir at the Ministry of Defence than at first seemed the case. It will be recalled that You Can't Tell the People, by Georgina Bruni, was rather surprisingly launched at the MoD last month, albeit with a warning that the ministry in no way sanctioned the views expressed therein."

    5. "Contact, from the future". Herald Sun. 2006-05-06. ProQuest 360396060. Archived from the original on 2025-09-08. Retrieved 2025-09-08.

      The article notes: "Georgina Bruni, a freelance investigative writer who trained as a private detective, has written a book, You Can't Tell the People, which describes this cover-up. The book includes many of the first interviews to appear in public, from witnesses including Halt and Penniston. Many will say Bruni's book falls short of final proof of the visitation and gives too much credence to conspiracy theories. Equally, few who read the interviews with Penniston and his two fellow patrolmen, Airmen First Class John Burroughs and Edward Cabansag, will not detect a ring of truth about their descriptions. ... Bruni has one final trump card to play in her battle for credibility -- a card which gave her the title for her book. Halfway through her research she attended a private function at which Britain's former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher was the guest of honour. At the end of proceedings, Bruni approached Thatcher and engaged her in a 10-minute conversation about her findings. 'You must have the facts right and you can't tell the people,' Thatcher told Bruni, leaving the author with the indelible impression the Iron Lady knew exactly what she was talking about and regarded the matter with extreme seriousness."

    6. Southwell, David; Twist, Sean (2008). Unsolved Extraterrestrial Mysteries. New York: Rosen Publishing. p. 53. ISBN 978-1-4042-1080-6. Retrieved 2025-09-08 – via Google Books.

      The book notes: "Author and society gossip columnist Georgina Bruni became a conspiracy researcher on the subject of Rendlesham and wrote a classic book on the case. At a social event in 1997, she seized her chance to ask former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher about the landing. Thatcher was annoyed at being questioned about Rendlesham and railed at Bruni, "You can't tell the people.""

    7. Wolman, Clive (1979-04-02). "Just like granny". Reading Evening Post. Archived from the original on 2025-09-08. Retrieved 2025-09-08 – via Newspapers.com.

      The article notes: "Shopping isn't what is used to be in Reading. Mrs Georgina Bruni has just set up shop selling lace dresses, hats, christening gowns and boudoir cushions dating from Victorian times to the Second World War. And her shop is different too. It's one of 35 mini-shops that opened last week ..."

    8. "History and politics". The Bookseller. 2000-08-11. pp. 35–36. Retrieved 2025-09-08 – via British Newspaper Archive.

      The one-sentence entry notes: "Georgina Bruni: You Can't Tell the People: The Cover-up of Britain's Roswell. Sidgwick, 10th, hbk, £17.99, 0283063580. Published on the 20th anniversary of the Rendlesham Incident, the world’s “only officially recognised” UFO sighting (and claimed alient encounter) at a Nato airbase in Suffolk."

    There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Georgina Bruni to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

    Cunard (talk) 08:00, 8 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"I've reviewed the arguments against this book's reliability and consider it sufficiently reliable" The idea that a sci-fi book by Nick Pope, emcee of Ancient Aliens, Live on Tour!, will ever be reliable for a BLP strains believability. Throwing this (and the various other pieces of chum, such as UFO cruft novels, you've plastered here), merely drags this process out by necessitating a no consensus closure, a trip to RSN, and then reopening this AfD later. The handful of remaininig, reliable sources fail WP:SIGCOV by just being a bunch of one-sentence mentions here and there. Affirm delete/redirect. Chetsford (talk) 19:14, 8 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Seconded. Skeptic2 (talk) 13:59, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that a sci-fi book by Nick Pope, emcee of Ancient Aliens, Live on Tour!, will ever be reliable for a BLP strains believability. – this is not a BLP since Georgina Bruni died in 2008. Ancient Aliens is an "edutainment" television show. Nick Pope's involvement in an edutainment television show about "ancient aliens" does not by itself render him an unreliable source. There would need to be evidence showing that he is unreliable for presenting factual biographical information about Bruni's life like this paragraph:

Georgina Bruni led a remarkable life and worked variously as a go-go dancer, fashion designer, and nightclub manager. She traveled extensively and at various times lived in Jersey, Italy, Hong Kong, and America before settling in London in 1992. She wrote poetry, designed a positive-thinking course, and founded one of the United Kingdom's first online magazines, called Hot Gossip. She was a former director of the Yacht Club, where she was involved in hosting social events for MPs, diplomats, and MoD officials. Later on she became a PR consultant and ran a social club, Le Club 2000. It was through her involvement with the Yacht Club that she first began to mix with various MoD, military, intelligence, and diplomatic staff. (Pope, Burroughs & Penniston 2014, p. 175)

I have not seen such evidence. I consider this book published by the reputable publisher Backbeat Books to be sufficiently reliable for this information. However, even if this source were disqualified, Bruni meets the notability guideline for people through the other sources.

I presented sources of varying lengths to demonstrate that Georgina Bruni meets Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria, which says, "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability." Bruni received 387 words of coverage in the Scottish newspaper The Herald (MacLean 2000) and 158 words of coverage in the Australian newspaper Herald Sun (Herald Sun 2006). The combination of these two sources demonstrates Bruni meets the notability guideline for people. Cunard (talk) 07:40, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Cunard, but I don't think you realize how non-encyclopedic the sources you quote are. In fact they rather emphasize Bruni's insignificance. Skeptic2 (talk) 14:04, 10 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Assume for a moment that we don't understand how these sources are unreliable for basic facts about Ms. Bruni's life and activities, or about her significance in her field. Can you explain it? Oblivy (talk) 09:07, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Source Analysis (by me, Chetsford -- neither authoritative nor official)
Source WP:RS WP:SIGCOV WP:INDEPENDENT Notes
The Herald Yes Maybe Yes Mention starts and ends in a single paragraph of a story
Encounter in Rendlesham Forest No Yes Yes Book is a sci-fi book that presents the conspiracy theory (as fact, not analysis) that alien battleships are visiting Earth. It is written by Nick Pope, a host of "Ancient Aliens" on the consensus unreliable WP:RSPHISTORY, which presents the theory that Martians built the pyramids using magic ray beams. Pope is also the ringmaster of the UFO carnival Ancient Aliens: LIVE on Tour! [5]
UFO FAQ: All That's Left to Know About Roswell, Aliens, Whirling Discs and Flying Saucers Maybe No Yes Bruni is mentioned in two short sentences in this 424-pages text, merely establishing that she was a living human. WP:N requires more than proof of life.
The Independent Maybe No Yes Bruni is mentioned in one sentence in this article, merely establishing that she was a living human. WP:N requires more than proof of life.
The Herald Sun No No Yes The tabloid Herald Sun has not been subject to a formal RfC, but has been repeatedly discussed at WP:RSN and generally found to be questionable.
Unsolved Extraterrestrial Mysteries No No Yes This is more Ancient Aliens sci-fi nonsense (the author has been a recurrent guest star on the Ancient Aliens conspiracy theory program on the consensus unreliable History Channel). From the book's own jacket notes, it admits it posits FRINGE fiction: "... this title puts skeptical readers to the test with profiles of ten of the more convincing cases involving aliens...".
Reading Evening Post Yes No Yes One-sentence mention and it's not even entirely clear it's the same person.
The Bookseller Yes No Yes One-sentence mention.
Chetsford (talk) 13:02, 11 September 2025 (UTC); header edited by me to clarify this is a personal analysis and carries no "official" weight (for clarity and benefit of new editors) at 15:15, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Understanding that you have a problem with using Pope's book, how did you conclude this not significant coverage? It seems from the previews at Archive.org that she's discussed over three pages 212-215 and also at 175-176 with biographical details.[6] Oblivy (talk) 13:45, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the catch, and you're right. Copy/paste error. Fixed. Chetsford (talk) 14:04, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note to Closer. There is some mild off-site canvassing occurring organized by a Reddit user who claims I'm a Martian that has infiltrated Wikipedia [7]. (I am a human being, and can provide private verification to Arbcom if there are doubts.) As of this timestamp it does not appear to have impacted the discussion in any way. Chetsford (talk) 19:51, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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