Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive19

Lokyz

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Lokyz blocked 24 hours by Krimpet, then released a couple hours later by Deacon of Pndapetzim after discussion. Parties advised to try talkpage warnings and reminders about sanctions, before filing AE complaints. --Elonka 19:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

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Lokyz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is subject since mid-December to a general civility "don't create a battleground" sanction (the "Digwuren sanction"). The user has been rather inactive till mid-March, when he became more active and since than he has posted many inflammatory posts. Having recently posted accusations of "antisemitism, polnish revanshism, making idiot of people" and most recently of "justifying of mass murder of civilian people (including children)" - which I believe qualify as being "uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith" - I think it is high time that the above sanction is enforced and civility restored to related discussions. Please see below for the list of offensive diffs. PS. Please consider whether one diff from March 13 may need to be erased via oversight per WP:LIVING. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• March 13: edit summary of a revert: "wikipedia is not a place for antisemitic propaganda, even if it is disguised as polnish revanshism"
• March 13: edit summary: "Lossowski is known to be blind on obviuos non-patriotic facts" - this may fall under WP:BIO as the edit summary is highly offensive to a respected Polish historian, Piotr Łossowski
• March 15: "instead of dealing false occusations could you please visit nearest library and read material on the subject?" ... "request - would you please try to act more like Encyclopedist, not a prosecutor or, as sometimes seems persecutor for the articles you seem not to like."
• March 15: "Please stop disrupting humanitarian sciences as a whole, making idiot of people"
• March 18: I've read some really disgusting "patriotic" thoughts by the author we're discussing now. But well, if such tone of the articles fits you - de gustibus non disputandum, i do not intend to violate WP:LIVING and create an article to destroy image of author you do not know, and do not have a clue about.
• March 18: . I'm once again surprised what "reliable" sources Halibutt and Piotrus are using, no less i'm surpised that such rubbish is considered a WP:RS, and I'm raher sad, that such porpaganda is allowed in Poland (as .pl domain suggest)
• March 24: Is this a P. civilization downfall? (P. presumably for Polish)
• March 25: accuse others of adding antisemitic references
• March 25: next, of using holocaust denial sources
• March 26: "installing Polish newspaper scrap"... "Remember, this is still English Wikipedia, not Polish."... "you did interpret and twist them them without any supporting evidence"... "what you did in this article, is a justification of mass murder of civilian people (including children). Think about it, and think how other people would think about you after such statement"

I can only say, that I was expecting this. Recent quite heathened discussions on few topics, and User:Piotrus accusation, that whole Lithuanian historiography is "biased" let me expect this. This is not the first time, Piotrus tends to transfer content dispute into civility issue.

I was disgusted by edits like this "The reprisal action of 23-27 June has succeeded in cowing the Lithuanian authorities, as it demonstrated that AK will react to further persecution of Polish civilians and answer with deadly force", and until now I do think this is justification of mass murder.

I was also inflammated by comments where slaughtered children were labeled as "child soldiers".

As for antisemitic sources - holocaust denier Dariusz Ratajczak claims were used as trusted source, it was discussed on talk page. It was not the firs time. .

To make my answer more comprehensive I'd like to have two days, as I do not keep backlogs on other persons, so I'll need to check with my edits history.--Lokyz (talk) 21:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Note: Piotrus maintains a black book on multiple contributors off-line, something he refused to stop when asked as late as a week ago. The cherry-picked collection of best hits over extended time may make anyone look devilish or saint. The aim of this meticulous record-keeping followed by unloading to AE is to "win" content arguments through achieving the sanctions of the opposite side. This was done before at PAIN, RFI and CSN before they were shut down (to Piotrus' protestations) by a wide community consensus. Now this board is being turned into the Wikpedia:Block my opponent just as the ones above were.

Also a disclosure that may matter. As far as I am aware, Piotrus, unhappy with the lack of quick action was seeking for a friendly closure at #admins today. Hope this helps. I hope this will not end up by rewarding the side in the argument that is simply more devious. --Irpen 21:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Analysis

Now looking at the diffs:

• March 13 diff1 "wikipedia is not a place for antisemitic propaganda, even if it is disguised as polnish revanshism" is a comment placed in response to the antisemitic cartoon being added to the article.
• March 13 diff2: "Lossowski is known to be blind on obviuos non-patriotic facts" - Lokyz expresses opinion of the source used by Piotrus. Piotrus spoke worse of the sources he did not like
• March 15: "instead of dealing false occusations could you please visit nearest library and read material on the subject?" ... "request - would you please try to act more like Encyclopedist, not a prosecutor or, as sometimes seems persecutor for the articles you seem not to like." First comment expressing the wish for opponent to read books and use them rather than go to google books to shop for cherry-picked quotes and slap them into the article. Second quote, a little over the board but anyone arguing with Piotrus about articles would have the same opinion of his conduct, even if it is withheld out of the fear to get an additional entry in Piotrus' black book
• March 15 diff. hardly acceptable even though Piotrus attempted to use Dariusz Ratajczak as an WP:RS (!)
• March 18 diff. Again, not worthy of any mention
• March 18 diff2. Again, a comment on the opponent's using the works of a dubious author to support their views in the WP article
• March 24. Unclear
• March 25: "accuse others of adding antisemitic references", well the references are either antisemitic indeed or they are not. Take a look for yourself.
• March 25, diff2, Same as above
• March 26. How should a concerned user react if the antisemitic sources are repeatedly and persistently being used with persistence. The matter at hand is not the comment but the source on which it is made. If the source is indeed antisemitic, there is nothing wrong with this comment. If it is not, than it is out of line. Look at the source and decide for yourself.

More coming. --Irpen 21:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I've blocked Lokyz for 24 hours, as his language as expressed in the diffs above does seem quite inflammatory and attacking, against the restrictions from the ArbCom case. krimpet✽ 01:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Two questions. Which of the above diffs were the basis of your block, and did you become aware of the case thru IRC (the controversial Wikipedia instant messaging page, for those not acquainted with WP acronyms) or IRC for admins? Novickas (talk) 01:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me that Irpen is right in much - but not all - of what he says. And as you can see from the message above this, already the kitten would be happy: yes, we do have MOAR DRAMA. I think any point that needs to be made has been made, so I'd like to see Lokyz unblocked now. Angus McLellan (Talk) 01:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

If another admin feels an unblock would be appropriate, I would not object. I simply know that Eastern Europe articles are a vicious battleground here, and support rigorous enforcement of the ArbCom restrictions (on both sides) as a final measure of keeping this part of the project functioning, as dispute resolution seems to have gone continuously nowhere, hence I feel a block was necessary. :/ krimpet✽ 03:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Krimpet's block was not unreasonable. However, with two other admins expressing concerns, with Krimpet's lack of objection and especially considering unblock of Piotrus last week after a clear violation of WP:3RR, the good of reconciliation and common sense of justice would be better served with a warning rather than a block. I am sure Piotrus would prefer this too. I am therefore lifting Lokyz' block. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

What Piotrus would prefer is for Lokyz to stop accusing him of spreading of antisemitic propaganda, holocaust denial, disrupting "humanitarian sciences", making an idiot of people, and justifying massacres of innocent civilians (including children). I don't care how this torrent of personal attacks is stopped, but judging by Lokyz's post above, warnings and reports don't seem to convince him to change his ways. Of course, if the consensus is that such accusations are a perfectly acceptable method of discourse, I will adjust my ways accordingly.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 03:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Irpen's analysis show that many diffs indicated by Piotrus are quite good (like removing a Holocaust denier used as a reliable source). If anything their mentioning by Piotrus in the blocking context warrants a warning by an uninvolved admin to Piotrus for assumption of the bad faith. Other diffs are less than ideal but still relatively mild. If we assume to uniformly apply those requirements we might find 3/4 of the editors involved into Eastern European topics to be banned. Myself and Piotrus will be certainly included. Do we need it? Alex Bakharev (talk) 03:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I have not dug deep into this dispute, and frankly, the constant bickering between some of the Eastern European editors tends to just exhaust me. Since Krimpet did look though, and has been challenged, I thought I'd take a relatively uninvolved look. I understand that there have been other recent complaints, and other ArbCom cases and I'll freely admit that I have not gone into them in detail. I feel that there are so many disputes, that reviewing every single incident involving these editors would be a fulltime job, and it's not where I want to be spending my time on-wiki.

Just looking at this particular complaint though, I have reviewed the diffs that Piotrus supplied, as well as Irpen's response to them. I don't feel that Piotrus's complaint is "clean". Some of his claims of incivility, do not look uncivil to me, they look like reasonable civil comments that are being used to discuss sources that are regarded as unreliable. I am also concerned that Piotrus came straight to AE, rather than first warning Lokyz at his talkpage. Per the Enforcement ruling, a block can be issued, but only after the editor is first warned. Now, it is true that a warning was given by Ioeth to Lokyz, but this was back in December. So that makes things a bit sloppy. I don't feel that it's fair to give someone a warning one month, and then block them the next. Even for someone under sanctions, I feel that they should be given a "warning shot across the bow" to let them know that they're on a problematic course. In other words, each time that Lokyz made one of the statements above, I think that whichever editor felt that it was a violation of sanctions, should have stated so right then and there, like, "Lokyz, I feel that your above comment is a violation of your ArbCom sanctions from <case>, specifically <quote wording>. Please try to avoid these kinds of actions, so that further enforcement is not necessary." Then, if Lokyz continued, then whichever editor was offended could post at Lokyz's talkpage, same language, and diffing the infractions. I think that this would be far more effective at addressing the behavior, rather than saving up a few weeks of diffs and then dumping them all here at AE.

Now, having said, that, I do still have trouble with some of Lokyz's comments. This one in particular concerns me,[7] as it's clearly targeted at other editors, with uncivil language ("rubbish"). There were also personal comments directed at Molobo here.[8] This edit does not specifically target an editor, but is uncivil ("making an idiot of people").[9]

Ultimately, I agree with Krimpet's analysis that the Eastern European articles are a vicious battleground. If a block de-escalates the situation, then I think a block is appropriate. However, I still think that this situation could have been handled better, as I said above, and before any further requests for AE blocks are made, I would like to see that all the editors involved do their best to abide by the sanctions, and to communicate clearly to each other when they feel that sanctions are being violated, so that further administrator action is not needed. --Elonka 04:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll just note that the last few sentences of paragraph two there constitute extremely good advice, and I hope it is followed. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 04:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Violation of the Balkans decision after being notified with {{uw-balkans}}

User:67.167.55.3 has repeatedly vandalized Albanians in Serbia [10],[11],[12]. I could just let him succumb to AIV, but I thought he should be blocked longer than he would from AIV because of his defiance of the ArbCom. (case here) J.delanoy^gabs_adds 19:02, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Is this a returning user or just a nonce vandal? Unless it's a recurrent problem, I guess we can just handle it as simple vandalism. I've blocked 24h. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Superseded by current request for amendment at WP:RFAR. Anthøny 19:02, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

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Abuse of PHG Arbcom restrictions by User:Elonka

I would like to inform Administrators and the Arbitration Commity that User:Elonka has been abusing the Arbcom ruling against me, to try to have me blocked indefinitely from editing Wikipedia [13]. Most recently, Elonka pushed for a one-week block against me, based on a compilation of false statements and claims against me, which was implemented through a 60-hour block by an unsuspecting Administrator (User:AGK), later abandoned for a "20 hours time served" in the face of a numerous opposition here. As User:Abd summarizes, Elonka has been "exaggerating the ArbComm decision regarding PHG as if it were a weapon rather than an attempt to cool things down." [14]

Although I dispute the Arbcom ruling against me, I have stated repeatedly that I intend to follow it, out of respect for Wikipedia.

I hereby wish to document the facts of this harassment, as well as the numerous complaints by other others that this generated. I would like to ask Administrators and the Arbitration Commity to protect me from such abuse, and warn Elonka against repeating such actions, and restrict her from harassing me in such a manner.

Complaints by other users

Numerous users have already complained of such abuse. As explained by User:Abd, she is using the ruling "as a weapon" against me [15]:

• "Frankly, Elonka, I find that your conduct with PHG has been tantamount to harassment, and that you are pressuring others to take strong action against him", "have you considered trying to help editors become more civil? Instead of trying to get them blocked or banned?" User:Abd [16]
• "PHG is going to go on creating and editing articles that are technically not covered by it, and those opposed to him will jump on any reason, no matter how tiny, to block him, until he is blocked for good. Is that the goal here? Or is everyone trying to make him so frustrated that he leaves on his own?" [17], "The Renaissance period is not covered by the ban imposed by ArbComm and so should not be used against PHG. Let's keep to the letter of the ruling." User:Adam Bishop [18]
• "After reviewing the unblock request, Elonka's comment on my talk page and AGK's reply above, I cannot agree with the block based on most of the reasons that are currently given for it" User:Sandstein [19]

False accusations

Elonka has been claiming blocks based on a compilation of false statements and undue stretching of my restriction perimeter:

• Elonka claimed that "He [PHG] started a new subpage that is related to medieval history: User:PHG/France-Japan relations (19th century) (though the title says 19th century, there is clearly a section on Medieval History within the article)" [20]
  

This statement is false: there was never "clearly a section on Medieval History" in the article in question (France-Japan relations (19th century)). The article actually started with a reference to the second half of the 16th century, which is certainly not part of the Medieval period, and therefore outside of the Arbcom ruling.

• Elonka claimed that I " re-created one of the pages that had been deleted via MfD: User:PHG/Franco-Mongol alliance (full version)", as ground to have me blocked. Actually I did not recreate deleted content as has been claimed, I only inserted a small link to an older version of an article ("Long version here") instead of the 200k content that had been deleted. I am also not prohibited from creating User subpages so the claim to block me is inappropriate.
• As soon as I try to contribute to Talk Pages, Elonka claims that I am "not respecting consensus at article talkpages, and is instead effectively copy/pasting his old arguments and continuing to disagree." [21]. This is highly untrue, as the discussions claimed to have me blocked were either new ([22], far from being consensual (with many users actually agreeing with me) [23], or totally legitimate [24] as they had not been discussed in detail yet (as recognized by User:Shell Kinney: "This is a step in the right direction and I think its worth fairly assessing each point to ensure we haven't over looked any usable parts." [25]

Stretching of restriction perimeter

• Elonka claimed the fact that I created a User subpage as ground to have me blocked: "He [PHG] started a new subpage that is related to medieval history: User:PHG/France-Japan relations (19th century) (though the title says 19th century, there is clearly a section on medieval history within the article)" [26]
  

However, my subpages are certainly not targeted by the Arbcom restrictions, which only concern articles: I am totally free to create User subpages, even ones that would deal with ancient history or Medieval material. Actually this is important, since I intend to use this material when my restrictions are lifted.

• Elonka routinely misrepresents my Arbcom restrictions as affecting all history-related article, when in fact I am only restricted from editing Ancient History and Medieval History articles, inappropriately calling for blocks at the same time: "This user, User:PHG is restricted from working on history-related articles. The page may look good, but the user routinely misinterprets sources. Please delete, and block the user" [27].

Stalking

• Elonka has been systematically following me around, either by tagging without specific cause articles I am creating ([28], [29]) or posting comments after my Talk Page posts to other users ([30]), or opposes my "Do you know" nomimations of articles I am allowed to create and edit [31].
• Elonka creates and keeps Wikipedia:Attack pages against me, a practice which I believe is discouraged by Wikipedia (see User:Elonka/Work2).

General methodology

Elonka typically mounts extremely well-constructed accusations against a specific user. She typically provides hundred of diffs that give her cases a look of trustworthyness, and in effect swamps other users or reviewers of the case. When scrutinized however, individual accusations usually are not decisive at all, and either consist in misrepresentation, deformations or exagerations.

Requested remedy

As clearly shown in the case above, Elonka typically makes false statements, misrepresents the reality of Arbcom sanctions, harasses users who are subjected to Arbcom restrictions, in order to push for ever-increasing blocks and obtain total banishment from Wikipedia. She uses such inadequate case-building to push for the harshest penalties. In her own words: "it is my opinion that he [PHG] needs to be permanently blocked" [32], "It is reasonable to give everyone a free pass for their first (and maybe second) block. But we should follow a three-strike rule. Three problems, and still no indication that the editor is going to do better, then they should just be "out"." [33].

I request a fair treatment from the Administrators and the Arbitration Commity through an honest implementation of my Arbcom restrictions, and protection from users who try to bend the rules to do me harm. Specially, I request that Elonka be warned against harassing me or misrepresenting my contributions. Regards to all. PHG (talk) 08:09, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Note, that this is a copy/paste of what PHG already posted at ANI (a thread that has since been closed). --Elonka 08:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The thread was closed because it was claimed that ANI may not be the proper venue for this. Hopefully this venue will be more appropriate. PHG (talk) 10:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like to post some thoughts here, just briefly, regarding this thread. It is indeed true that PHG's original enquiry was closed when posted on the incidents noticeboard, and he was directed to this noticeboard, I do not believe that this thread was justified, either there, and similarly, here. The most amicable course of action here—both, for the areas of the project affected, and for PHG himself—is for PHG to drop this matter.

PHG, you really are beginning to exhaust patience. Just when I thought you were turning over a new leaf, you drag this out again, and slice open scars that were just beginning to heal. This is neither helpful for anybody, nor impressive or giving of a good impression on you. Indeed, some statements in your recycled post are actually quite unacceptable: that Elonka is "harassing" you, that she is "misrepresenting your contributions", and that she is pushing for you to be expelled from the community are complete misrepresentations of the facts of the dispute.

I would very firmly suggest that you close this thread, and start building an encyclopedia. I said this when I initially blocked you, and I find it suitable here to say it again: the AC's restriction was a "sort yourself out" message—that is, it was a "last chance". You are very clearly not using that last chance in a way that could, by any interpretation, be considered a "good use". Rather than making yourself look better with this thread, you are simply raising the concern that I have, that your editing habits are not compatible with a collaborative encyclopedia. Anthøny 10:55, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. PHG, it is not the case that everything not explicitly disallowed in that arbcom decision is permitted. Nor should you be thinking of "waiting out" your arbcom sanction in order to return to the same behavior again. You were found to have substantially and repeatedly misrepresented your sources in order to support novel interpretations of history which do not agree with the academic consensus. You should attempt to understand the reasoning behind the arbcom's decision and why the way you have edited and behaved is not acceptable. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 11:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

This discussion has probably outlived its usefulness. Further clarifications, if needed, can be taken to the admin overseeing it (PhilKnight). If anything new happens, but only then, this report may be reopened. Thanks. El_C 20:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

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User:Jaakobou, fresh off a one-week topic-ban, on a rampage again

The title says it all. Just two days after his one-week topic-ban expired, Jaakobou promptly initiated at least two edit wars:

• Israeli-Palestinian conflict: While a bunch of us (mainly User:Sm8900, User:Nishidani, User:Michael Safyan and User:GHcool) were discussing (quite productively, mind you) a part of the historical outline, User:Jaakobou barged-in, without touching the discussion, and forced his own version unto the text (here and here). Fortunately, User:El C stepped in and protected the page, nipping this edit-war in the bud.
• Avigdor Lieberman: This one is a real gem for those who have seen User:Jaakobou's editing on Gideon Levy, Saeb Erekat and other WP:BLPs. User:Jaakobou didn't like some of the unflattering yet well-sourced quotes on the Avigdor Lieberman page and promptly edited them away (here and here). User:Nickhh and I quickly intervened, unleashing a cascade of thinly veiled reverts (here, here, here and here).

Furthermore, his crusade to excise the term Palestine from Wikipedia continues (and again here).

What bothers me here is not the substance of the disputes (in which I am involved) but the tone of the discussions (here, here and here on another recent issue, no edit-war though, since I'm following WP:BRD).

User:Jaakobou does not follow WP:BRD, forces his preferred version during ongoing discussions, assumes bad faith and is borderline uncivil. This is not the editing style I would expect from someone who is under close supervision in a controversial area of Wikipedia. His previous topic-ban has taught him nothing.

As for what is to be done, I am at a loss. I leave it up to responsible admins to deal with.

Cheers and thanks, pedrito - talk - 28.03.2008 07:52

Actually, on second thought, I'm not at an entire loss... User:Jaakobou's problem seems to be reverts, so I suggest a WP:1RR restriction, maybe even only one revert per week or even WP:0RR. Cheers, pedrito - talk - 28.03.2008 08:06

It might not be a bad idea for User:Jaakobou to impose on himself a WP:0RR in all his editis in wikipedia. I think he can become a better editor this way and this will force him to write edits which will be acceptable to others. Zeq (talk) 04:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Response by Jaakobou

• I honestly don't have the time for this accusation, esp. considering the bias and persistent POV pushing of the person making it.

• Currently Pedrito (talk · contribs) happily violated WP:BLP by tag-team reverting with Nickhh (talk · contribs) who specifically told him to game the system:
  • "Pedro, your turn next if he does it again ;}" Nickhh, 22:18, 27 March 2008
  • "WP:BLP is a serious violation - DO NOT REVERT AGAIN without using the talk page and achiving consensus." Jaakobou, 22:21, 27 March 2008
  • "reverted removal of well-sourced, referenced material." Pedrito, 07:16, 28 March 2008
  • See BLP explanation from talk below.

• Previously, Pedrito (talk · contribs) has forced months of conversations over allowing the word "hostage" in the Gilad Shalit (abducted Israeli soldier, held with hostage demands for 650 days already) article and disappeared from the mediation after rejecting 18 reliable sources and presenting an WP:OR statistics found on the false statistical assumption that "hostage" (situation) should appear more often than "captured" (in a raid).
  • User:Jaakobou wants to introduce the word "hostage" in the lead. In order to avoid undue weight, he must show that this term is the preferred term. - [Pedrito, 15:17, 5 February 2008]

I actually believe Pedro and Nickhh should be sanctioned for tag-teaming to include BLP, and for purposefull waste of time - following me around into a number of articles and making WP:POINT reverts. However, I don't have time or special need to file anything more. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 08:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Erm, just in case it's as unclear to anyone else as it is apparently is to Jaakobou, the "your turn next .." edit summary was a joke, specifically intended to refer to your prior WP:AGF breaching accusation that we were tag-team editing. --Nickhh (talk) 09:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Note to admins,:

This "joke" promoted edit warring to reinsert a WP:BLP violation and was accommodated with a couple of snide personal remarks.

• "You couldn't explain anything clearly if you tried." Nickhh, 22:51, 27 March 2008
• "I wonder whether you even understand 20% of what you read or write here" Nickhh, 22:45, 27 March 2008

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 11:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC) clarification added 14:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

On an interesting side-note, notice how User:Jaakobou edit-summarises "DO NOT REVERT AGAIN without using the talk page and achiving consensus.". This only underlines his gross misunderstanding of bold-revert-discuss: He edited-out a bunch of quotes (bold), I reverted (revert) and now he has to take it to discussion (discuss)... Not revert to death and insist that somehow his (new) version has to stay up until I can prove by exhaustion that it is incorrect. This is the same approach User:Jaakobou follows in all edit wars.

I couldn't have provided a better illustration myself. Cheers, pedrito - talk - 28.03.2008 09:07

Pedro's ignoring the talk page discussion (and the edit summary notice) and reverting has reinserted the content explained in the 'BLP Explanation' and also a non encyclopedic libelous rant by a political adversary of the article's subject; the encyclopedic value of which is dubious at best.

Numerous out of context quotes (like 90 percent ..[Israel's Arabs].. would "have to find a new Arab entity"^[34]) are an example to clear misrepresentation of random (or vaguely sourced) quotes taken out of their source context - and used in synthesis to soapbox.

with respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Not quite. According to the timestamps, you went to discuss after re-reverting. That's not the way WP:BRD works, but it is typical of the way you try to block articles in your preferred version with endless discussions. Cheers, pedrito - talk - 28.03.2008 10:24

WP:BLP Explanation:

copied from here: [35], Summary: misrepresentation of source material to post "flashy" quotes that make a living person seem like a genocidal, racist monster.

Nickhh, I disagree with your recent revert [36]. The text was mucked up with misuse of sources and needed an NPOV rephrase.
Source 1: independent.co.uk

• (a) Source is misrepresented within the article - per "Mr Lieberman urged that Palestinians be told to halt all terror activity or face wide-ranging attacks." being POV presented as "At 8am we'll bomb all the commercial centers..."
• (b) Source does not establish notability and relevance of racism allegations or "controversy".

Source 2: haaretz.com

• Source uses a vague 3rd source for the inflammatory "prisoners should be drowned in the Dead Sea" claim registered within the wiki article - find that original source or at least a few other reliable sources that support this, otherwise this is WP:BLP.

Source 3: Reuters

• Source is misrepresented within the article - per "[Avigdor Lieberman], said he was ready to evacuate his West Bank settlement home to achieve his [population transfer] proposal." being POV presented as 90 percent of Israel's one million Arabs would "have to find a new Arab entity"

I'd appreciate an explanation on why you believe that despite your revert reinserting these misrepresentation of sources, that it was the correct move. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Uhm... Jaakobou? This is not a content dispute. It's you reverting like a mad-man and not following WP:BRD or any form of WP:CIVIL. Cheers, pedrito - talk - 28.03.2008 08:57

Absolutely. And that debate is documented on the relevant talk page. Please stop trying to re-run it here, only quoting your arguments and not including the responses you received regarding the context, notability and BLP issues you are trying to bring up. --Nickhh (talk) 09:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Pedro's assertions have been less than accurate on the Gilad Shalit mediation and here also (my talk page contributions can be examined). He has a clear misunderstanding of core policy such as WP:BLP and WP:GAME, both now and also in the past.

(Sample: asking a page be reverted to his version and protected [37])

To admins,

1. I've already raised a request that tag-team reverts would be put under the microscope and this is a great opportunity to reiterate this request.
2. I believe Pedrito (talk · contribs) and Nickhh (talk · contribs) have violated and continue to violate the Purpose of Wikipedia using it as a ramming advocacy tool.
3. Pedrito also did not make a single talk page comment even when directly addressed [38]; and went on to revert a BLP violation into the article a second time following his friend's edit war "joke". However, he repeatedly suggests that he follows WP:BRD.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 09:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

p.s. Pedro has now also canvassed a number of friends. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 09:49, 28 March 2008 (UTC) clarify purpose of wikipedia issue. 14:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The "number of friends" I informed of this enforcement request is 2: User:Nickhh and User:Eleland, who are both involved in the aforementioned disputes. I suggest you go read WP:CANVAS and delete that last accusation. Cheers, pedrito - talk - 28.03.2008 09:57

• There doesn't appear to be anything sanction worthy here. Yes, Jaakobou doesn't follow 1RR or BRD, however that isn't sanction worthy. Also, the edits by Jaakobou shown in the diffs are reasonable enough, removing what could be considered an unduly sensationalist quote from a BLP for example. If ArbCom had wanted to restrict articles or editors to 1RR or BRD, they could have, and obviously didn't. If a pattern emerges of having to protect articles, because of edit warring, then maybe sanctions could be imposed, but on the current evidence, I don't believe this is required. PhilKnight (talk) 20:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• • You think that redirecting "Palestina" to "Israel" is "reasonable enough?" You think that removing entirely well-referenced information about highly notorious comments made by a public figure is covered under WP:BLP? These were not Ronald Reagan we-begin-bombing-in-5-minutes jokes, PhilKnight, the man has a long track record of threatening Arabs with terrorism and ethnic cleansing, and Jaakobou is edit-warring to erase that from the record. <eleland/talkedits> 21:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
    • • Eleland, please don't [[[WP:SOAP|soapbox]]. Use your time to find legitimate sources that repeat these sentiments/position. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 21:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
        • You can't present this as a sourcing issue, Jaakobou. The sources were already provided in the article and discussed on the talk page. You kept claiming that they were misquotes, vague, or not reliable, but you wouldn't say why.
        • You want more sources? Here's a head start:[39]"CBS News correspondent Robert Berger reports Avigdor Lieberman has some controversial views. In 2002, he called for the bombing of Palestinian gas stations, banks and commercial centers in response to suicide bombings. He has also called for the execution of Israeli Arab parliamentarians who met with leaders of Hamas."
        • International Herald Tribune headline: [40] A hard-line Israeli official, Avigdor Lieberman, stakes out extreme positions
        • Jerusalem Post headline: Peretz: Israel Beiteinu 'racist party' (Peretz is Amir Peretz, at the time the leader of the mainstream Israeli Labour Party)
        • This constant obstructionism and obfuscation has to end. <eleland/talkedits> 22:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• • Notes and question by Jaakobou:
  • (a) Pedro has made both of his reverts without any talk page discussion while his friend was sure to note to me that he believes "[i] couldn't explain anything clearly if [i] tried." and "jokingly"(?) encouraging Pedrito to edit war a BLP violation into the article.
  • (b) I tend to believe that my talk page explanations were not deserving of such commentary (or edit war games) and just recently I've been given a week's vacation (topic ban) for responding poorly on talk pages to a longtime (months of) ongoing barrage of similar activity.
  • (c) This provocation would have been waved off with a "p.s. I repeat my request that you desist of making snide personal remarks." (see talk link) if it weren't for the attempt to have me sanctioned "for BRD violation" by someone who does not adhere to BRD or follow the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Final_decision arbitration principles] himself much, being that he and his friend managed to ignore 'Purpose', 'Decorum', and 'Editorial process' all in one go.
  • I am forced to ask if there are any thoughts about the tag team "joke"? I find this a common phenomenon that could/should really be addressed in some form. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 21:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

If you don't want jokes about tag teaming Jaakobou, then please don't make accusations of it minutes before. By the way, you were given a topic ban following complaints about an anti-Arab racist rant and your mocking of other another user's mourning notice, which they had posted on their user page in respect of the killing of 100 human beings, not for "responding poorly" or whatever Newspeak you think describes it best. But of course having made those points, this isn't about any of that, or about your counter-complaints as above. It's about aggressive edit-warring and 3RR reverting on specific articles, and constant POV pushing on pages that are subject to an ArbCom decision. ps: PhilKnight, on one of the content issues, Lieberman's statements often are sensationalist, that's the point of referencing them. --Nickhh (talk) 22:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for providing a diff that shows Avigdor Liberman is not the only article on which you and Pedrito have both "collaborated". The rest of your comment is inaccurate mudslinging, just as your previous snide commentary was. removed non germane note. 00:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

On point, Randomly selecting sensationalist quotes out of their article/relevant context to mudsling and change the context of something said by a living person is a WP:BLP violation. Furthermore, requesting collaborators to ignore policy and edit war, a request Pedrito has responded to - is bad form to say the least. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 23:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

What are you on about now? You're a funny guy --Nickhh (talk) 23:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

In my humble opinion, the removal of reliably sourced content from a biography of a living person isn't exempt from 3RR. I've protected the article in the wrong version, to prevent the edit war, but obviously won't object if another admin removes the disputed content. PhilKnight (talk) 01:10, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I note you've struck out some of your last comment Jaakobou. But as an aside it might be worth thinking about the possiblity that when you find yourself in dispute with two - or sometimes several more - editors about article content, it may be that you are clinging on to a pretty hard to defend position, or behaving in a way that appears disruptive to others. Not that those editors are secretly "tag-teaming" or "collaborating", or ganging up on you. --Nickhh (talk) 09:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The flaw in your argument is that these are not random anonymous editors but rather the same clique again and again. If there is something unclear with an argument of mine, you can ask that I will rephrase it. However, my arguments are not so far fetched that I've managed to achieve consensus on a wide number of these arguments and sometimes even a mediation or two (Samples: long discussion on Israel -- a featured article -- resulted in a new 3rd paragraph; mediation on Gilad Shalit resulted in allowance for both 'hostage' and 'abducted'). Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you have made positive contributions, but also, in addition to the 1 week ban, you've been blocked 5 times for edit warring. I'm not going to impose a 1RR restriction at the moment, however if this pattern continues, then it could be reconsidered. PhilKnight (talk) 17:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

You got it wrong, out of those 5 times, only 2 were justified (above 3 hours) and I served my time for them and changed my editing behavior considerably. I can't believe how no one made a comment regarding the tag-team behavior to insert a BLP violation. To remind 3RR doesn't count when BLP is in question and tag-team behavior, when Pedrito has not made a single talk page contribution, is not in the least bit pro-active. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 17:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou, I am not going to debate this with you indefinitely - if you can't grasp that your conduct is a problem, and you continue to edit war, then I'll impose a 1RR restriction for a month. I suggest you carefully read the WP:BLP policy - it doesn't say "3RR doesn't count when BLP is in question". Your edits to the BLP were not exempt from 3RR, because at least some of the content you removed was reliably sourced. However, because some of the content wasn't sourced, I've protected the article instead of blocking you. PhilKnight (talk) 18:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

PhilKnight,

1. I accept that making 3 reverts, despite removing 3 BLP violations -- sourcing on all 3 are 'very poor' at best, agreed upon by Momento -- could, and will be in the future, handled differently.
2. Best I am aware, 3RR policy is not only about 3 reverts but rather includes the concept of preventing edit warring. To remind, Pedro has opened this complaint trying to have me sanctioned for edit warring (with him and his friend to remove a BLP violation) and for not following WP:BRD when he has not made a single talk page comment. His friend, has not only edit warred, but also been in violation of 3 out of 4 of the arbitration final decisions by making uncivil commentary, ignoring the purpose of wikipedia and promoting edit warring.
3. I want to thank you for recognizing that 'at least' some of the material was not well sourced (in violation of Wikipedia:3RR#Exceptions) and therefore not blocking me. However, I disagree with the descision to keep this poorly sourced smear campaign on the article and ignoring the edit war (Pedrito: (1), Nickhh: (2), Nickhh: (3) "Pedro, your turn next", Pedrito: (4)) to keep this violation in the article.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your civil reply. Obviously, the page protection wasn't intended to endorse the current version of the article. Finally, I hope the talk page discussion will develop a consensus on how to proceed before the page protection expires on the April 2nd. PhilKnight (talk) 20:00, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jeff Merkey is back in violation of ban

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

There are never absolutes. Although the policy dictates that all edits (including productive ones) from banned accounts should be undone, I would caution against restoring living persons breaches or simple vandalism. But as for content additions from banned users, those indeed should be removed, or we may as well abandon the policy (regardless of this purported hidden copyvio factor). El_C 03:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

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Should Merkey's edits be removed?

By the letter of WP:BAN, all of the edits made by banned user Merkey under his recent account should be deleted. Before someone starts on that task, whether merely intending to enforce policy or from a desire to harass Merkey, it would be helpful if it could be determined if the policy actually applies. Even though the policy specifically states that the worth of the edits should not be considered, a cursory look at these edits seems to indicate that most were worthwhile additions. It should be noted, however, that Merkey has claimed (on deleted User talk:Waya sahoni) to have deliberately introduced copyright violations into articles in order to discredit Wikipedia. Limited excerpts from his source are available to help review at least a few of his edits. Because of my history of past interactions with Merkey, I will of course take no action. --MediaMangler (talk) 01:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Reincarnation of user banned during Arbcom?

Anti-in popular culture/anti-trivia accounts Dannycali, Burntsauce, and Eyrian were banned in the Alkivar and subsequent Eyrian arbitration cases. Those familiar with those cases should look at these contribs. Notice, the editor under question has an incrediblye large gap in edits:

• 21:39, 5 April 2007 (hist) (diff) m Helen Keller‎ (→Removing vandalization)
• 07:16, 20 December 2006 (hist) (diff) Talk:Armenian Power‎ (Request for page to be locked.)

He also expresses an opinion strikingly similar to the banned socks associated with the above mentioned cases and seems to be picking up today where the banned accounts left off. More specifically, his main contributions for today focuses on starting and participating in a new AfD (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Classical elements in popular culture (second nomination)) for the same article previously nominated by banned account Eyrian (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Classical elements in popular culture). And the use of death as a metaphor for what should happen to these kinds of articles is also consistent with what we have seen in previous AfDs associated with the now banned accounts. Nevertheless, to be fair, based on this edit, I could be wrong (Eyrian was almost never nice to me), so I'll leave it to someone else's judgment. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 02:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Wait and see, per Fut.Perf. Refer to this report for any future issues. El_C 06:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

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User:Karabinier

User:Karabinier had already been notified about WP:ARBMAC (repeatedly)[102][103], yet chose to ignore these polite reminders and proceeded to engage in an edit war with four other users and on mulitple occasions on the Alexander the Great article.[104][105][106][107][108][109][110]. Further he

1. refuses to respect consensus
2. refuses to discuss the matter on the talk page
3. refuses to even read the dozens of talk pages that have been wasted discussing this minor matter (there are already 11 archived talk pages)[111]
4. makes highly provocative comments [112] in addressing other editors, in clear violation of WP:Civil.

His behaviour runs the danger of reigniting the tendentious and time wasting debates engendered by this matter before consensus was finally arrived at. The article had been stable for over a year before User:Karabinier showed up. Finally User:Karabinier has also been reverting consensus on other Macedonia related articles, like Republic of Macedonia. Thanks.Xenovatis (talk) 13:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

• There's a clear 3RR violation on Alexander the Great, that's a standard 24h block, first in his log.

• Incivility: This [113] is hardly incivil in the context it was said in; the previous posting to which he responded was a good deal more unfriendly.

• I don't see much to worry about in his involvement on Republic of Macedonia; Karabinier made a set of highly productive restructurings of that page, part of which was a good-faith and properly justified rewrite of the intro. That rewrite happened to be against a long-standing compromise that had been battled out over a year ago, which doesn't mean it's in principle unjustified. He was first met with a rather unconstructive blanket revert of all of his edits [114], which was only subsequently rectified into a merely partial revert of the contested intro [115]. He then reintroduced his proposed intro change once more [116]. A single revert on his part is not yet crossed the line into disruptive edit-warring, in my book. Others were revert-warring more.

• In all, I'm not sure his involvement in Balkan issues is enough of a long-standing pattern at this point to make more far-reaching ARBMAC-style sanctions necessary. This user is not (yet) a Balkan regular. A revert limitation (restricted to Macedonian topics) could be discussed, but I guess at this point we can also just see and wait how he continues after this first block. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree in all points made by FP. I was the one who did the blanket revert, and I was misled by the intro change, due to the fact that there were hardly any edit summaries for his many consecutive edits. When BalkanFever noted this in my talkpage,[117] I agreed immediately,[118], I noted his other positive contributions,[119] and following BalkanFever's full re-revert of my blanket-revert I changed only the intro.[120] NikoSilver 17:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

That said, Karabinier's other edits in RoM were indeed great improvements, but his conduct at Alexander the Great should be viewed beyond the mere WP:3RR violation: His repeated revert regards the origins of Alexander, which have been discussed to exhaustion in the talkpage, and he supported them with the rationale that they were ...politically backed by the newly formed country(?!) [121]. This is a serious violation of the WP:NPOV policy (the "N" there stands for "neutral", not for "national"), and I suggest the user is instructed to read this policy, and the also applicable WP:RS thoroughly. A possible next edit of his on these grounds should be viewed very seriously. NikoSilver 17:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

PHG and Légion d'honneur

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

see statement

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Closing admin statement: I've spent 2-3 hours looking into this today to resolve it somehow. There are at least Jehochman, Durova, Akhilleus, Rocksanddirt, Coren, and Nsk92 calling for mentorship of PHG. This seems to represent the consensus on this issue. There are many users concerned about PHG's use of unverfied sources, two of whom are User:Aramgar and User:Kafka Liz--the unsourced and inaccurate info postings seem to still be ongoing, and there are others. Other areas of major concern are derogatory comments about other users (though he did strike one after it was brought up), towit the "midwest christian" and on this page "females from the US Midwest", which offended the mentioned users (see PHG's 01:07 7 Apr posting). There also seems to sourcing and accuracy issues ongoing with PHG in Louis XIV of France, Talk:Christian_Polak#Phillipe_Pons_and_Le_Monde:_Needs_to_be_Verified, Talk:Christian_Polak#Latest_edits, Talk:France-Japan_relations_(19th_century). As for the AFD issue, PHG inserted questionalbe material into the article during the AFD. Through all this PHG has shown a consistent pattern with little or no change with multiple respected editors showing significant concern who are about at the end of their patience. In short, User:PHG has almost exhausted the patience of the community. I think Akhilleus summed much of this up quite well in his 15:41 06 Apr post. In essence, PHG's editing behavior is causing undue disruption. Unfortunately, PHG has shown no willingness to change nor does he seem willing to accept a mentor. There is enough concern that at Wikipedia:RCAM it appears his restrictions will be tightened. I feel I have no choice but to block him for the maximum allowed by his arb restrictions, 1 week, and strongly encourage him to accept a mentor. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

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PHG (talk · contribs) appears to be making unverifiable claims about an individual winning the Légion d'honneur. See discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Polak#Convenience break 2. PHG claimed that they won the honor in 1989, but there is no evidence at Catégorie:Chevalier de la Légion d'honneur , nor at List of Légion d'honneur recipients by name, nor via Google search, including book search. It appears that the messages from the arbitration case Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance have not been taken to heart. I think PHG immediately needs to cease editing until a mentor is found to check for compliance with WP:NPOV and WP:V. Thoughts? Jehochman ^Talk 20:16, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

That is clear gaming. PHG appears to be deliberately attempting to introduce misinformation, either in continuance of the pattern that earned him a topic ban in the first place or to make a point. Given the clarification thread where it appears that the arbitrators are on the way to widen the restriction, and this latest disruptive editing, I am blocking him indefinitely until arrangements for mentorship, or some other form of close supervision, can be taken. — Coren ^(talk) 21:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

At this point he's trying to toss everything he can find in Google at the article hoping to get it kept because this gentleman's significance is the only claim for the material in another article he's writing. See here where some else had to remove information that clearly was not even about the same person. Shell ^babelfish 21:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC) - Sorry, this information was inserted by someone other than PHG. Shell ^babelfish 22:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

On hold. Keep in Un-Resolved section, for now. Since it was initiated, the AfD should be allowed to take its course without the discussion, and energies of the participants, being fragmented. Report may be reopened based on the result. El_C 21:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

On hold. Keep in Un-Resolved section, for now. Since it was initiated, the AfD should be allowed to take its course without the discussion, and energies of the participants, being fragmented. Report may be reopened based on the result. El_C 21:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: indefinite block by Coren should be lifted immediately. I am likely to do it myself in a little while; at the very least, I'd like to see how the AfD is concluded before drastic action is taken (otherwise, what's the point of having an AfD?). Thx. El_C 23:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC))

Addendum 2: Okay, I unblocked PHG (I did, in fact miss the block having been issued when I wrote the first On-hold note above). I again ask that we wait for one structured discussion (AfD) to formally conclude before moving to the next. El_C 00:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Were it not for the timing, I would have opposed the unblock because I do not beleive PHG's behavior depends on Christian Polak's notability. Simply put: at best, PHG has used a source he did not properly understand in order to make an unsupportable claim. If that had been an isolated incident, I would have made nothing of it— but as it is, he was found by the Arbitration Committee to have habitually misrepresented sources, and he was strongly admonished not to do this again. Given that he has been brought again in front of the AC for that same problematic behavior, and that he nonetheless persists, yet another obvious "error" in comprehension was strictly unacceptable.

As it is, the most good faith we can stretch to cover PHG's citation practices is that he is extraordinarily careless in selecting and citing sources, so much so that any putative value he introduces to the encyclopedia is canceled by the fact that every single assertion he writes needs to be double and triple checked by other editors.

I don't beleive PHG has a future as a contributor on Wikipedia unless he is strictly and competently guided, and unless and until he agrees to mentorship. — Coren ^(talk) 00:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

You went on at such length and yet, inexplicably, failed to respond to my main objection: the afd was still open, so in theory it could go either way. I expect you to address this. El_C 00:49, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Simply put: I beleive it's entirely besides the point. Whether the AfD determines that there is consensus that the article's subject is notable enough to retain it or not has no bearing on the citation practices of PHG. He is at best negligent and at worst disingenuous in the way he makes citations from difficult (or impossible) to verify sources, and shows no effort or intent to correct those damaging practices. — Coren ^(talk) 00:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, how the AfD closes matters, because we expect it to also touch on that area (and if it doesn't, then we move on). El_C 01:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

It's unfortunate Coren has unarchived this report; now we have competing discussions. I really tried to avoid this from happening. El_C 00:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it should be held anywhere else, if that's your worry. — Coren ^(talk) 00:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't even know what that means. My worry is your methods. El_C 01:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

El C, considering that you and I have been involved in prior disputes,[123][124] I question your impartiality here. --Elonka 01:13, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

That's a bit of a stretch. Also, there was no objection when I took administrative action unfavorable to PHG.^[125] El_C 01:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Can I ask what on earth the AfD has to do with whether or not this incident warrants a block? This isn't about someone's behavior in one AfD, this is about a contributor who habitually misrepresents or outright falsifies sources -- that he happened to do so again on an article that is up for AfD is completely beside the point. Shell ^babelfish 01:15, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

That should be shown in the AfD, since it already started. We don't need multiple discussions, and he should be allowed to participate. El_C 01:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The status of the AfD is irrelevant. The block was appropriate because PHG violated sanctions. I wasn't really involved with this discussion since I don't read Japanese, but Google translation has been extremely helpful. In a nutshell:

• During a contentious AfD on the article Christian Polak (which PHG had created), PHG added information saying that Polak had "received the Medal of the Légion d'honneur (Chevalier) in 1989."[126] The source given was http://necom.cool.ne.jp/book0206.html .
• The listed source is in Japanese, but a Google translation to English is available here.[127]
  • What the source shows is that:
    • For one, it is a very weak source. It is obviously a self-written speaker bio, which is not allowable as a source for claims of notability (see WP:SELFPUB)
    • Even allowing for the above, the source doesn't say anything about the Legion d'honneur award. Instead, it mentions a National Order Award.
    • Further, PHG added to the article that the award was given in 1989,[128] but this is not confirmed in the source that he added.[129]

When challenged about the information at the AfD, PHG did back down, remove the source, and change the name of the award. However, that he added the information at all, with such a weak source (and a misinterpreted source at that) appears to be clearly in breach of the ArbCom ruling, specifically Finding of Fact #2:

In numerous edits to a series of articles concerning medieval and ancient history, including but not limited to articles relating to the alleged Franco-Mongol Alliance, PHG has cited scholarly books and articles for propositions that the cited works do not fairly support. Typically, PHG has isolated on a particular statement or quotation within a work and taken it out of context without fairly presenting the viewpoint of the source taken as a whole. Some examples of this have been presented by the parties here. Arbitrators' independent review of several of PHG's sourced edits versus the content of the original sources confirms that several sources have been cited in a misleading or distorted fashion. Although we continue to assume good faith with regard to the intent of PHG's editing, its overall effect is problematic.

And Remedy #2:

PHG is reminded that in contributing to Wikipedia (including his talkpage contributions, contributions in other subject-matter areas, and contributions after the one-year editing restriction has expired), it is important that all sourced edits must fairly and accurately reflect the content of the cited work taken as a whole.

In other words, despite the ArbCom cautions, PHG has continued to use weak sources, and/or cited them "in a misleading or distorted fashion." As such, a block was appropriate. --Elonka 01:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The AfD was actively investigating the above. That's why I put the AE report on hold. So we can have one investigation restricted to one place. The block seems to have cut it short, however; while I expect PHG principal opponents to support the block, wouldn't they rather have a more substantive, and transparent, basis for it? I might have been ready to support it soon. El_C 01:39, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

It comes across as too eager for immediate censure. All of you should have just let me place this report on hold. Allow the AfD to close (any day now — I would have done it myself and had time to look at it had it not been for these distractions), then, if the citation methodology was shown to still be problematic (which it may well be), we could have made arrangements for mentorship or whatever. But this seeming concerted must-be-censured right-now mentality is not what we want to turn Arbitration Enforcement into. There's no rush. El_C 01:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree completely that there is no rush, and will be happy if El C reviews the AfD carefully and provides an opinion. El C has an excellent understanding of history. Jehochman ^Talk 01:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I have no trouble with El C offering an opinion at the AfD, but I strongly disagree that El C should be using his admin tools here. --Elonka 01:42, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

As stated above, Elonka had no trouble when I took administrative action that favoured herself in this dispute,^[130] but now there's suddenly a problem? Because she is not being automatically supported? It doesn't work that way. El_C 01:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

El C, your protecting that page did not "favor me", and for the record, yes, I had a problem with you getting involved with that one too, but it was a minor issue so I didn't say anything. But now you've gone and overruled another admin, which is a very different matter. You should not have gotten involved. There's also the issue of your relationship with Jehochman, but that's a more complex issue. Some of your comments on Coren's talkpage were also inappropriate. To be clear: El C, I would prefer if you no longer used administrator tools in any situation involving me, as I do not trust your impartiality. It would also be nice if you deleted that subpage in your userspace devoted to me. --Elonka 02:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea what Elonka is talking about. I don't see how everything PHG-related pertains to her. My relationship with Jehochman is perfectly normal (what I missing there?). My comments on Coren's page are, in part, a followup of other, unrelated issues regarding similar premature action. Elonka, Shell and Coren who are still fairly new admins, do not appear to fully appreciate how blocks are not punitive. PHG can be told not make similar edits, but to restrict him from an ongoing discussion is not in the spirit of how do things around here. Now, I don't at all mind letting another admin handle this, if only to reduce some of the increasing tension. But I would prefer that it be overseen by an admin who, like myself, is experienced in attending to arbitration enforcement matters. Many thanks in advance. El_C 02:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Please do not lump me in the "new admin" or "supporting the block" categories - I just asked what on earth the AfD had to do with whether or not PHG was violating his restrictions. Shell ^babelfish 02:50, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I think I'm done here. El_C 03:10, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

El_C, that patronizing attitude will most certainly not win you any friends. I am hardly a "new" admin, and nobody here is questioning the amount of AE work you have been doing. A block until mentoring can be found of an editor whom I estimate to be damaging to the encyclopedia (and I am very obviously not alone in this evaluation) is most certainly not punitive, regardless on how you personally care to call it. — Coren ^(talk) 03:44, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Although I'm not here to win friends, it's unfortunate you keep reading what I say as patronizing (again, such is not the intent); you are fairly new, and quick on the block button, still. Regards, El_C 04:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Request for additional input

Would several other uninvolved editors please weigh in on what we should do about this situation. We do not have a consensus yet. Jehochman ^Talk 04:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment by PHG

Thank you for your kind support on this during the time I was peacefully sleeping in Paris. I do read and write Japanese quite fluently (I spent quite a few years there), and I basically never use a translation tool such as Google for Japanese. Unfortunately, I am not an expert of the Japanese names for French medals though. When I saw the information about Polak's medals on the Japanese website, I did think that 国家功労賞 was Japanese for "Legion d'honneur". I asked a Japanese national (who speaks fluent French), who could not give me the French name for 国家功労賞 either. The Japanese site used for the source is an online publishing house [131], which I thought should be fair enough as a (first) source. A few hours later and some Googling, I realized 国家功労賞 was Ordre National du Merite (mainly because I couldn't find other mentions of Polak's Legion d'Honneur as well). So, I was wrong with the denomination of the medal, and when I realized that I corrected it right away ("Ahhh, 国家功労賞 seems to be Ordre national du Mérite. シュバリエ is Chevalier (the first rank), オフィシエ is Officier (Officer, the second rank). Would somebody have access to the list of recipients of the Ordre national du Mérite? PHG (talk) 20:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)" [132]). By the way, the Japanese site was not so bad, as it was confirmed by French official sites [133]. Sorry for the mistake, but sometimes Japanese/French/English translations can be tricky, although I think I would rank as quite good at it. Best regards to all. PHG (talk) 13:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Why did you reinsert this poorly sourced material into a biography of a living person? [134] Jehochman ^Talk 13:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, because I think it is quite well sourced, since it is an article from the Monthly Letter of the French Chamber of Commerce in Japan [135], and I added the original French quote as J.Reading had requested. Best regards. PHG (talk) 13:34, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

For the sake of transparency, could you use the web site's domain name instead of the IP address? Also, this looks like a cached copy of the document. The cache link is unreliable and could go dead. Can you link to the live copy of the document instead? Could you endeavor to use {{cite}} templates with as many of the fields completed as reasonably possible? I do a lot of citing and cite checking. Errors are less problematic when cites allow others to check and correct the information. I have created a plugin for Firefox, wpcite.xpi, that partially automates web citations. You might find this useful. Jehochman ^Talk 14:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

... which is my whole point. Why did you insert material you did not understand into an article? If you didn't know what 国家功労賞 stood for, it was not appropriate to insert a reference to a guess in the meantime (especially one that is so trivially verifiable as false). I am making no inferences about your motives or intent from this, but at the very least you are being careless— which is compounded by the fact that you have been repeatedly told that your sourcing practices are problematic. — Coren ^(talk) 15:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Please remember to assume good faith, as reasserted by Arbcom. I wrote that 国家功労賞 was "Légion d'honneur" because I thought it was (over-self-confidence: I am quite fluent in Japanese, oral and written). When I realized it was Ordre National du Merite, I immediately corrected it. Best regards. PHG (talk) 13:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I have made a simple request for PHG to better comply with policy on verifiability. As has happened many times before, when editing problems are identified to PHG, he invokes WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and continues as if nothing has happened. Jehochman ^Talk 18:35, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

PHG, you have posted several times on this page since I made the above request. Are you willing to improve the quality of your sourcing, or not. Thank you for answering directly. A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. Jehochman ^Talk 13:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe I have always been highly compliant with Wikipedia:Verifiability, and intend to continue doing so and even improve further in the future. Best regards. PHG (talk) 14:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me. There an arbitration finding of fact, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance#Misrepresentation of sources that shows your contributions have failed to meet standards of verifiability expected by Wikipedia. My complaint here is that you have not improved your methods. Do you still deny that there have been problems with the verifiability of your contributions? If you will agree to make improvements, and follow through on the commitment, that might resolve my complaint. Jehochman ^Talk 14:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Please note that the Arbcom clearly states: "we continue to assume good faith with regard to the intent of PHG's editing". I am indeed editing in good faith, and consider my edits are highly compliant with Wikipedia:Verifiability, and again, intend to even improve further in the future. I will not respond to further provocation on this subject. Best regards. PHG (talk) 14:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Your intentions do not matter. The effect on the encyclopedia is harmful due to the addition of unverifiable information, and your edits definitely do not comply with verifiability. I am expressing a concern, which has been endorsed by other editors, and you are ignoring the concern. This is exactly the problem that brought us to arbitration. Jehochman ^Talk 15:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman, I believe you are not here to replace Arbcom or to modify its rulings. I have been highly compliant with the Arbcom ruling, and my contributions have been made clearly outside of my editing restrictions. For example France-Japan relations (19th century) is properly sourced and highly complies with verifiability. Rather than rethorics, if you have specific issues, please highlight them. Best regards PHG (talk) 16:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

And, again, you refuse to acknowledge your problem and simply wikilawyer your way around the wording of the AC finding. Did it occur to you there is a reason why the arbitrators are already considering widening the scope of their previous ruling? — Coren ^(talk) 00:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) PHG's misrepresentation of the Japanese language website is all too typical of the problems with his use of sources. He is long past the the point where he can afford to pass off the deficiencies of his research as simple mistakes. He has never shown any understanding of the issues which led to the Arbcom censure and as a result his problematic behavior continues. His most recent activities constitute a clear violation of Remedy #2. He has abused our good faith for too long. Aramgar (talk) 17:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

(followup request) This thread has now been here for a week, and the corresponding motion at WP:RCAM (requests for clarification and motions) has been there since March. Both threads have been inactive for a couple days now, and I would hate to see it archived out of apathy or "stale-ness", as it is my impression (granted, I am involved) that several editors in good standing have indicated a strong desire for action of some sort. I think that everyone here is being very patient, but that doesn't mean that the problem has gone away. Could someone please provide some kind of an update? Thanks, --Elonka 04:04, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Elonka is not the only editor who would like to see this issue resolved. Kafka Liz (talk) 15:14, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic and religious provocation

I think the following remark[136] by PHG reveals his agenda:

... Christians might resent material showing exchanges, agreements and goodwill between the Popes and the Mongols for example, although it is historical reality. The people whom I have encountered (and who attacked me relentlessly at Arbcom) and who have always tried to play down these relations, remove original letters etc... typically seem to be from "heartland America" (Christian Midwest).

— User:PHG

PHG was reminded of the need to collaborate with other editors at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance#PHG reminded: collaborative consensus. Baiting with ethnic/religious provocation is not collaborative; in fact, it is quite disruptive. Jehochman ^Talk 13:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't know, it's just a Talk Page discussion, basically a statement of facts, as a response to a worry of User:Appletrees about the reactions of Korean Christians to his planned translation of Franco-Mongol alliance (here). Don't worry, it is not a question of "agenda": I am Christian myself, it's just that I am of the European kind, which means that I am probably quite tolerant in my outlook. Quite a few people have called me "French", or "pro-Buddhist", or whatever, and have even suggested that I should go and write on some other language Wikipedia: I don't consider it "Ethnic and religious provocation" or whatever, and I don't think describing that some users are "Midwest Christian" should either. Best regards PHG (talk) 13:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

PS: I do think that your systematic accusations are quite disruptive however :) Cheers. PHG (talk) 13:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I request you to strike all of your remarks that are enthnic or religious stereotypes. It is not appropriate to presume that somebody is biased because of where they live or what religion they practice. Jehochman ^Talk 13:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC) (added 14:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC))

Again, this is not about stereotype or claim of "bias", but a simple presentation of fact on a Talk Page discussion, to answer to the worries of another editor. Best regards PHG (talk) 15:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I think it is stereotyping to say that Middle-American Christians are biased. Here we go again with the bold denials of what is plainly clear. I have tried to discuss this with you, but you refuse to listen to any sort of criticism. Jehochman ^Talk 15:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I never said, anywhere, that "Middle-American Christians are biased". This is serious misrepresentation. PHG (talk) 16:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

PHG's statement is plainly derogatory and relies on an offensive stereotype. What's more, if we consider which users have been in conflict with him, and their geographic origins, it's clear that PHG has one particular editor in mind as a "Midwest Christian". This is an offensive statement, and PHG should refrain from making such statements, even on his talk page. I don't normally recommend blocking users for things they say on their talk pages, but PHG's militant cluelessness is straining my patience, as is his refusal to recognize that there are any problems with his use of sources. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:41, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, so if this is indeed perceived as such, I will strike my statement: [137]. My apologies for this. PHG (talk) 15:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

"perceived as such" is a textbook example of a non-apology. You persistently act in a disruptive manner, then refuse to acknowledge the nature of the problem (see above, where you have repeatedly been asked to acknowledge your exceedingly poor referencing but deny the existence of the problem even in the face of an Arbitration Committee finding). — Coren ^(talk) 16:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I maintain that my statement was only a statement of fact, and in no way constitutes a claim of bias or in no way has a derogatory intent. A user (User:Appletrees) said he was worried by the reaction of (Korean) Christian editors, and I just answered there were indeed reactions in the past from (Midwest) Christian editors (here). I do apologize if this generates bad feelings, which is why I striked my comment. Best regards. PHG (talk) 16:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) PHG's comments about Midwestern Christians are reminiscent of the delusional ravings of Geir Smith and Dr Boubouleix. Need we state again that many editors had concerns about his Franco-Mongol alliance because he misrepresented sources to advance a novel interpretation of history. The suggestion that he is the victim of some sort of religious prejudice is absurd. It is a breach of civility, no matter where it was written, and constitutes a personal attack on User:Elonka (and perhaps User:Ealdgyth also). How much longer will the Wikipedia community allow a single disruptive user to waste our time? Aramgar (talk) 17:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Assuming that folks who participated in the ArbCom case are Christian is a bit of a stretch. You don't know if I'm Christian or not. (The fact that I edit bishops in no way has any bearing on that, nor the fact of where I live). Assuming that I because I live in the American Midwest that I must be Christian is a stereotype. Would you like it if I stereotyped French editors on some similiar basis? Ealdgyth - Talk 17:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The above comment of PHG placed was originally left at my Talk page, so isn't it a courtesy for anyone to let me know of this? I feel obliged to comply with this endless accusation on PHG because every time I say something to PHG, he gets some unfair punishment or blame. (Legion d'honneur, image warnings, so-called religious "agenda")

Well, I highly recommend PHG to use E-mail if he wants to chat casually with somebody. That is not an ethnic and religious provocation or agenda or whatever. It is simply chatting. I think someone may accuse me of suddenly jumping into this matter, but I'm primarily a Korean Wikipedian who has translated over 300 articles (mostly about Western culture and history) into Korean and Commons editor, so I've acknowledge PHG for his accomplished contribution on Commons, especially his photography related to Asian art and history in which I am getting very interested.

In my short response, I told him about Korean Wikipedia's situation briefly but he caught a hidden meaning well. The Wikipedia has barely over 50,000 articles, but holds considerable amount of articles related to Crusader and Christianity. The number of articles is double of Chinese Wikipedia and almost similar to Japanese Wikipedia (170,000 articles and 450,000 articles in total respectively) That means when I translate those kind of articles, I should be very careful not to exhaust myself to deal with some editors, honestly to say, who don't get respect by the community. Even though I'm a Christian, I do think that anything violating WP:UNDUE to look the religion or people unnecessarily glorified should be out of the Wikipedia. Anyway, I don't know what ethnicity PHG or other editors have, but I don't think PHG explicitly implied Elonoka. Before PHG created Franco-Mongol alliance, did he ever get blocked for any disruption? No, but the article is strongly associated with religion, so he may think as such. That is not a derogatory slur or anything. This unfair accusation is an attempt to block him permernantly which is really beyond good faith. I am also very disturbed by Elonaka's attempt to accuse PHG's photography of violating the image policy.[138] [[139]] I checked his earing image and one presented by her with Photoshop software, but that is really his picture. I think Elonka's activities against PGH is really disruptive and makes her unwarranted more.--Appletrees (talk) 22:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

To anyone who has been following this dispute for the duration, User:PHG's mention of editors from the "Christian Midwest" is a transparent reference to User:Elonka. Elonka's religious background and geography are in evidence on her userpage. Moreover, Elonka's Catholicism is a favorite talking point of PHG's allies [140] [141]. In short, we have heard this all before. Aramgar (talk) 23:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

So? Even if PHG really intended to imply her, I would not know if you guys tell this at here. The page is also my private place and he was delighted for my future translated article in other language Wikipedia, and we briefly talked about situation around the article. However, is following his every step somewhat like a stalking? Elonka falsely accused him and got him blocked in the last case, so I really understand his feeling about her.--Appletrees (talk) 23:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Appletrees. Elonka is not stalking PHG but exercising appropriate oversight in tracking the edits of a user with a continuing history of problems regarding misuse of sources. As someone unfamiliar with the extent of the dispute, you are missing a lot of the background that would clarify things. Please don't misunderstand me: I am not saying that your opinion is unwelcome, even if I disagree with it, but I just wanted you to be aware that there is a bigger picture here. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm.. according to your page, you're related to Aramgar. Sorry, I don't misunderstand anything. What I speak here is from what I've seen the Abicom case and Elonka's several time complaints about PHG on Thatcher's page for over one month. I was at the AFD and his translation error is I think, minor and not intentional, because I know translating from an Asian language to English or vice versa is tricky per my experience. I don't believe that his error is deliberately committed as Jehochman's assertion. I was rather shocked at his not-so-good-faith report and threatening.(I thought he is a very rational and calm admin). My impression on Elonka is not from one day or two weeks observation. You did not explain Elonka's attempt to accuse of PHG's possible copy infringement. Well, I'm knowledgeable of photography and image softwares, so her attempt to nail her firm belief on PHG is really annoying me because it is from bad faith. --Appletrees (talk) 00:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if the person in question would write off Mircea Eliade, an Orthodox Christian who taught in Chicago, in the Midwest, as well? Judging people by their location is, or even implying judgement of people by their location, is something which I believe cannot be considered anything other than deliberately offensive. I sincerely urge the party in question to refrain from any and all such prejudicial statements in the future. And, yeah, I'm from that area too. John Carter (talk) 00:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, no offense intended, and thank you so much Appletrees for your support. It was just a personal exchange between me and Appletrees about possible Christian reactions to an article (here), and I think we have the right to talk about that. I already apologized however to anybody who might take offense. It has been indeed quite puzzling to me that most of my staunchest opponents for Franco-Mongol alliance have been females from the US Midwest: User:Elonka, User:Ealdgyth, User:Shell Kinney. Again, just a statement of fact, and pardon me if my geographical definition might be a bit blurry. I am French, and Appletrees is Korean, we are both Christian, and I don't think we'll take any offense if that is mentionned :) Best regards. PHG (talk) 01:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

A sexist attitude as well... PHG, we have formed our opinions about you based on the quality of your edits alone. Please refrain from unhelpful and simplistic speculation about motives. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:44, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

What on the earth is "sexist" about saying that these three editors are female? As far as I know "female" is a simple descriptive, but calling me "sexist" is an outright personal attack. Regards PHG (talk) 20:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

PHG, you are being extraordinarily clueless. You already know that several different users find your statements offensive; why do you continue to repeat them and elaborate upon them? It's hard to believe that you don't understand *why* people find what you're saying offensive, but by calling people "Midwest Christians" you seem to be saying that they're motivated by religious bias rather than legitimate intellectual concerns; that's a personal attack. By mentioning that these users are female, you imply that their gender somehow biases them against you--it sure looks like you're blaming their opposition on feminine irrationality, rather than legitimate concerns with your contributions. That's sexist.

My advice to you is to stop contributing to this thread. When you find yourself trying to explain why an offensive remark isn't offensive, it means that you're in a hole, and you need to stop digging. Please try to realize that nearly every contributor to this thread thinks that your contributions are problematic because you misuse references, and that ArbCom has confirmed this, and seems poised to restrict your editing even further. These findings have nothing to do with anyone's national origin or religious beliefs, still less their gender--they have everything to do with you and your behavior. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Akhilleus, you took the words right out of my mouth. I couldn't have said it better myself. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:53, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Ahem. I objected, but he never responded. Although I didn't suppose when it happened that it was particularly aimed, this current thread does lead me to wonder. It isn't all that hard to find out that I went to graduate school at the Cinema-Television division of the University of Southern California. Was PHG calling a group of editors bigots collectively, or was that coded language directed at me in particular? Either way, an apology is six weeks overdue. Durova^Charge! 01:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Mandatory mentorship

I strongly recommend that PHG (talk · contribs) be prevented from editing until such time that a mentor can be found to guide and oversee his edits. Because of El_C's unexplainable decision to unblock him previously, I am not in a position to enforce this without descending into wheel-warring. — Coren ^(talk) 16:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Your move to block me was in reaction to a translation mistake (from Japanese to French) I had made in good faith (and corrected as soon as I uncovered it), which is really a poor reason to block someone (again a request by Jehochman). Arbcom has stated that my edits are done in good faith, and that's really the case. I am grateful that many users came to my defense, including El_C (here). Just because I am under Arbcom restriction doesn't mean I should be blocked everytime somebody accuses me of something. If you have specific issues with my edits, I will be glad to discuss them. I am quite proud of the quality of the work I have done since my Arbcom restrictions came into effect: France-Japan relations (19th century), almost an FA-level article, or Tokugawa Akitake‎, Guillaume Courtet, Gustave Duchesne de Bellecourt or Johann Caspar Horner. Best regards. PHG (talk) 16:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

No, it was in reaction to your introducing erroneous information in an article, again. Whether you do so because you are careless or disingenuous has now become quite immaterial; you are being told, over and over, to be careful and you simply maintain your position without even acknowledging that there is a problem. As isolated incidents, those would not be worth more than a notice, but it is a constant pattern which you fail to correct (or even admit exist). — Coren ^(talk) 19:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

This is untrue. As soon as I identified the translation mistake, I apologized. And I will gladly acknowledge my errors and apologize anytime I do make a mistake. On the other hand, if I believe I am being accused unfairly, I will always defend myself. Please note that I have been contributing a lot to Wikipedia (over a period of 4 years, 26.000 edits to date, 8 FAs, thousands of photographs), so it is a statistical reality that there will be some mistakes sometimes. Look, France-Japan relations (19th century) is already 30k-long, so I guess you're bound to find one or two errors in it. Everytime this happens however, I gladly acknowledge and correct. Best regards. PHG (talk) 00:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Coren that PHG has exhausted the communities patience regarding his use of sources and uncollegial communication with other editors. In my mind, PHG is one step from a complete article space ban, and two from full site ban. While I understand ElC's position, I disagree also. PHG as lost whatever good faith an editor normally gets. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 20:11, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry that you should think that, dear Rocksanddirt. I am glad to announce you that the Christian Polak article has just passed AfD, and has thus been accepted by the Community as a proper Wikipedia article, inspite of all the dirt that has been thrown about it. May I suggest you just actually take a look at my contributions, such as the France-Japan relations (19th century) article? Best regards. PHG (talk) 20:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the result of the AfD was "no consensus" (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Polak), which defaulted to "keep". Nsk92 (talk) 14:05, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

If you look at Talk:Christian Polak#Bibliography problem, you will see evidence that the bibliography of this businessman-academic has been inflated and spun to enhance his purported notability. This is very troubling and may be grounds for a deletion review, especially because the falsifications only came to light after the AfD was nearly completed. The fact that this article was kept shows that community processes, like AfD, are easily subverted when sources are misrepresented. This is a good reason for the Arbitration Committee to reconsider the current remedies which appear insufficient. Jehochman ^Talk 20:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Coren that PHG needs mandatory mentorship. I participated in the Christian Polak AfD until the Légion d'Honneur blow-up, after which the AfD discussion degenerated into a contentious battle. I think that PHG's edit adding the Légion d'Honneur info with a reference to a Japanese source, without providing a translation, was, at best, very reckless and imprudent. WP:V contains a section dealing specifically with non-English sources, WP:RSUE, and its requirements were not followed here. It is not enough for PHG to dismiss this episode as a "translation mistake". PHG may be fluent in Japanese but most of the rest of us are not. That is why the WP:RSUE section of WP:V exists and requires that: "Where editors use a non-English source to support material that others might challenge, or translate any direct quote, they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors." WP:RSUE is meant to prevent exactly the kinds of mistakes PHG made here from leading to erroneous info being included in Wikipedia. I have read through the above discussion as well as through the original AfD thread. I personally do not believe that PHG intended to deceive when he introduced the Légion d'Honneur info and reference. But it is clear to me that PHG does not sufficiently appreciate the requirements of WP:V and does not understand the need to critically and carefully examine sources, especially when they support his point of view, before citing them in Wikipedia. I think he gets over-enthusiastic when he finds some source that supports or appears to support his position, then rushes to include this info on WP (thinking, OK, now will they finally see my point?) and often ends up overstating his case in the process. This is exactly the kind of attitude that requires mentorship, and, given PHG's history and his lack of acknowledgement of his past and current problems, this mentorship needs to be mandatory. Nsk92 (talk) 14:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like you have come to the heart of the problem. Can you reference these remarks at the ongoing discussion at WP:RFAC. Hopefully the ArbCom will endorse this proposal. Jehochman ^Talk 15:30, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, done. Nsk92 (talk) 15:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.